Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Again- you are bootstrapping the argument and creating a strawman. The issue isn't whether there are bad instructors and students who took their courses. The question is whether someone who is a certified diver can be presumed to know baseline diving as a general rule.

I don't believe I'm creating a strawman. With regards to your question that I bolded, that in the majority of cases (over 50%), the answer is yes. The problem is that it is not an overwhelming majority.

If I am a boat operator, do you want me to pool test divers with a certification BEFORE letting them on the boat - even though they have a certification? Really?

What you do as a boat operator is your business.

What I will do when I open a dive center is take first time customers on an easy dive, unless they do a free workshop from shore to work out their weighting and I can observe their skills in the shallows. Mind you, this will be for an active retirement, so my goal is to simply not lose money. But that will be the way I operate, as while diving in the Med, there is often divers who cannot set up their gear and cannot control their buoyance, and that is a headache for the dive guide.

 

[Omisson]

I remember my CD heartily encouraging us to perform a skills test for any customer coming to take an advanced or rescue class, or specialty.

Part of that was charging them $25 to go diving with them, but the rest was to assess their diving skills. Someone rototilling or harming sea life isn't ready for Advanced, they need a Peak Performance Buoyancy class. Or something. I'm not trying to get you to upsell, I'm trying to add skills assessment and needed remediation to their tool kit.

We all talk about every other instructor and how they suck, and we are all studs who make perfectly buoyant students who love to dive. Here's the chance to take a student with sucky skills and make them life long divers, but not by passing them along.

"heartily encouraging us"- so was that a just-so happenstance thing or an actual policy at your shop? Was it always enforced? I don't have a problem with assessments - before teaching a Tec, PSD or Pro class, we evaluate students as a matter of course content- but on AOW it is usually a progressive dive experience - we start with shore dives for navigation and don't do deep until the end of the sequence.... so it is in a sense a shakeout system. But that is by application of the teaching here, not policy per se and certainly not because of standards (from any agency).

If we are doing that across the boards, its a time and expense- so as long as the other side of the aisle doesn't cry "Instructors are overcharging us and taking our money for no reason" fine. But I doubt it.

I just find it terribly ironic that on these boards we constantly hear things like: "I don't need a class to learn to use a drysuit - that's just a price grab by greedy shops and instructors".... then this type of case happens and EVERYONE who just said that they didnt need a class for that specialty hypocritically says, "how can those drysuit standards be so lax- a clear that an accident waiting to happen"...

 

[Omisson]

25 CFR § 11.440 - Tampering with or fabricating physical evidence.​

§ 11.440 Tampering with or fabricating physical evidence.
A person commits a misdemeanor if, believing that an official proceeding or investigation is pending or about to be instituted, he or she:

(a) Alters, destroys, conceals, or removes any record, document or thing with purpose to impair its verity or availability in such proceeding or investigation; or

(b) Makes, presents or uses any record, document or thing knowing it to be false and with the purpose to mislead a public servant who is or may be engaged in such proceeding or investigation.

Also:

A person commits the federal crime of tampering with evidence when he or she knowingly alters, conceals, falsifies, or destroys any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to interfere with an investigation, possible investigation, or other proceedings by the federal government. 18 U.S.C. § 1519.

A person who is convicted of the crime under federal law may face a prison sentence of not more than 20 years, a fine, or both. 18 U.S.C. § 1519.

so who exactly was this evidence "hidden from"- based on YOUR interrogatories you know it was sent to a person who reasonably could analyze the data: "December 3, 2020. Mr. Williams brought the computers to Christian McDonald, Scientific Diving and Small Boating Safety Officer, Scripps Institution of Oceanography/UC San Diego, on or before January 6, 2021. Mr. McDonald downloaded the information from the computers with Mr. Williams present and returned them to his custody"

Are you saying the Scripps Institution was part of some evidence coverup? Really? That's a pretty bold statement.

 

[Aura]

I just find it terribly ironic that on these boards we constantly hear things like: "I don't need a class to learn to use a drysuit - that's just a price grab by greedy shops and instructors".... then this type of case happens and EVERYONE who just said that they didnt need a class for that specialty hypocritically says, "how can those drysuit standards be so lax- a clear that an accident waiting to happen"...

So you don't see the issue with an instructor taking on the role of teaching a diver how to use a drysuit and lets them do the dive without an inflator hose (which obviously the student would have no idea was vital since they don't know how a drysuit works), all while loading them up with 20+ kg of unditchable weight?
I am trying really hard to see your point, but I simply don't think there is one.

 

[Wookie]

"heartily encouraging us"- so was that a just-so happenstance thing or an actual policy at your shop? Was it always enforced? I don't have a problem with assessments - before teaching a Tec, PSD or Pro class, we evaluate students as a matter of course content- but on AOW it is usually a progressive dive experience - we start with shore dives for navigation and don't do deep until the end of the sequence.... so it is in a sense a shakeout system. But that is by application of the teaching here, not policy per se and certainly not because of standards (from any agency).

If we are doing that across the boards, its a time and expense- so as long as the other side of the aisle doesn't cry "Instructors are overcharging us and taking our money for no reason" fine. But I doubt it.

I just find it terribly ironic that on these boards we constantly hear things like: "I don't need a class to learn to use a drysuit - that's just a price grab by greedy shops and instructors".... then this type of case happens and EVERYONE who just said that they didnt need a class for that specialty hypocritically says, "how can those drysuit standards be so lax- a clear that an accident waiting to happen"...

Shop? I’ve never been associated with a shop in my life. I detest dive shops.

 

[Omisson]

So you don't see the issue with an instructor taking on the role of teaching a diver how to use a drysuit and lets them do the dive without an inflator hose (which obviously the student would have no idea was vital since they don't know how a drysuit works), all while loading them up with 20+ kg of unditchable weight?
I am trying really hard to see your point, but I simply don't think there is one.

You clearly have NO idea what you are talking about. I have posted EXTENSIVELY on this thread about the DOZEN PLUS standards violations of the instructor. I suggest you go back and read the thread.

if you lack the ability to see what comments I refer to then you obviously aren’t reading many Scubaboard threads- which are rife with people saying out of one side of their mouth that specialties and advanced open water classes are unnecessarily and just greedy instructor/shop money grabs, and then saying out of the other that the standards are insufficient. - oh the irony!

to be clear, since you need clarity,
1) I have previously stated IN THIS THREAD- the instructor clearly violated no less than 12 standards. I even outlined them and posted the relevant standards.

2) I have also pointed out on this & numerous other accident threads as an attorney (formerly) the litigation issues created by such gross negligence is serious and actionable. And have discussed the various levels of legal liability and exposure.

3) And none of that changes the volume of hypocrisy of the armchair litigators and self proclaimed scuba experts that post on theses forums self-contradicting and just-so-stories routinely.

let Me know if you NOW get my point.

 

[Wookie]

"heartily encouraging us"- so was that a just-so happenstance thing or an actual policy at your shop? Was it always enforced? I don't have a problem with assessments - before teaching a Tec, PSD or Pro class, we evaluate students as a matter of course content- but on AOW it is usually a progressive dive experience - we start with shore dives for navigation and don't do deep until the end of the sequence.... so it is in a sense a shakeout system. But that is by application of the teaching here, not policy per se and certainly not because of standards (from any agency).

If we are doing that across the boards, its a time and expense- so as long as the other side of the aisle doesn't cry "Instructors are overcharging us and taking our money for no reason" fine. But I doubt it.

I just find it terribly ironic that on these boards we constantly hear things like: "I don't need a class to learn to use a drysuit - that's just a price grab by greedy shops and instructors".... then this type of case happens and EVERYONE who just said that they didnt need a class for that specialty hypocritically says, "how can those drysuit standards be so lax- a clear that an accident waiting to happen"...

I do not have a drysuit C-card nor have I received instruction. I have a hundred or so dives in it. I think most certification classes, the way they are taught, are silly.

I taught one distinctive specialty, as it gave me the ability to show the coast guard that my deckhands received formal training.

I taught solo because it allowed divers to do on a charter boat what they were doing anyway.

Most of my cousins learned to dive by going into Maine Hardware on Congress Street and buying a set of gear and heading to Town Landing and strapping it on and jumping in.

But if you’re going to bother teaching a class, teach it other than half-assed.

People who know you say you do.

 

[Wookie]

Dan, do you understand the difference between “certification is silly” and “if you’re going to do something, do it right”? I have stated many times that I think most certifications are silly. But if you’re going to sell certification cards, give quality instruction in accordance with the standards of the organization you certify through.

These are not mutually exclusive.

Snow taught a class outside of the standards of her agency.

The agency failed to ensure she was teaching to their standards, even though they have a program that exactly ensures that.

These are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Omisson]

But if you’re going to bother teaching a class, teach it other than half-assed.

People who know you say you do.

I hope I am misreading this.

If not, name your source, because so far as I know- other than you, no one has ever said anything of the sort. And last I checked- we don't run in nearly the same circles. Of all the things I've seen as a criticism, its usually that I overteach my students.

None of my instructor trainers, or any of my Public Safety or Technical Students - seem to have any such issues - which is the bulk of what I do. Funny how in 15 years of attacking me on these forums you never once indicated any common connects- so I find it laughable that now you try this angle of attack. So lets check with the NY State Water Rescue teams I am a training officer for- or students I've actually had...to gain their insights.

 

[Wookie]

I hope -for your sake- I am misreading this.

If not, name your source, because so far as I know- other than you, no one has ever said anything of the sort. And last I checked- we don't run in nearly the same circles...fortunately.

None of my instructor trainers, or any of my Public Safety or Technical Students - seem to have any such issues - which is the bulk of what I do. Funny how in 15 years of attacking me on these forums you never once indicated any common connects- so I find it laughable that now you try this angle of attack. So lets check with the NY State Water Rescue teams I am a training officer for- or students I've actually had...not phantoms in your head.

Sorry, I meant it exactly as I said it, but I said it awkwardly.

I know many people in the dive business. Many know you, and have dived with you. Every one says you are a good diver and instructor, and don’t know why I attack you.

Which is, of course, because you are aggressive as hell.