Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[PirateFoxy]

Not to drive this to the Pub, it’s a lot of work for a non-sexy outcome. No riots regardless of the outcome, there will be no heroes made, no one will come out a winner, and we won’t get Linnea back.

Snow, while grossly negligent, more than likely just suffers from the stupids. She didn’t set out to kill Linnea, but did so because she has a problem with her inability to process a coherent thought. I’m not sure that stupidity is criminally actionable, otherwise a whole lot of folks would be incarcerated.

The thing for me is that mishandling evidence doesn't *just* have an influence on this case. If this is representative of how they do things in general (and there's not really any reason to think otherwise at this point) then who else is going to go without being properly investigated and charged because they mishandle evidence? It's just not an acceptable way for investigators to behave. That needs to be addressed even if charges aren't brought against Snow.

 

[Wookie]

The thing for me is that mishandling evidence doesn't *just* have an influence on this case. If this is representative of how they do things in general (and there's not really any reason to think otherwise at this point) then who else is going to go without being properly investigated and charged because they mishandle evidence? It's just not an acceptable way for investigators to behave. That needs to be addressed even if charges aren't brought against Snow.

I can't answer this without driving it further into the Pub territory.

I don't believe all federal investigators are incompetent, David and I have a friend who was an FBI agent, who has done dive accident investigative work, and he is very thorough and a good riddle solver.

But enough are incompetent that it gives the rest a bad name.

 

[PirateFoxy]

I can't answer this without driving it further into the Pub territory.

I don't believe all federal investigators are incompetent, David and I have a friend who was an FBI agent, who has done dive accident investigative work, and he is very thorough and a good riddle solver.

But enough are incompetent that it gives the rest a bad name.

The only solution I see is for people to demand competence when they learn it isn't present. Because we should have competent investigators.

 

[rsingler]

The only solution I see is for people to demand competence when they learn it isn't present...

Let me amend that slightly...
The solution is for training organizations to demand competence when they learn it isn't present.

Oh, nevermind. I forgot that the organization in question here has a superb and active quality assurance program, and demands only the highest quality from its instructors.

Honestly, any concerns we have about the investigation MAY be handled by our ponderous criminal investigative system in due time. And... those concerns are rather after the fact.
In contrast, a settlement (in our ponderous legal system) effectively obscures a root cause, and ensures that the issue will resurface in time.

In any case, with or without a training organization being forced to deliver on the QA process it says it has, insurance costs for instructors will rise. That may mean that the less dedicated may drop out, which can be a good thing. Or, only factories will survive, which will be a bad thing.

 

[Subfiend]

I don't believe all federal investigators are incompetent, David and I have a friend who was an FBI agent, who has done dive accident investigative work, and he is very thorough and a good riddle solver.

But enough are incompetent that it gives the rest a bad name.

I don't believe the DSO of the NPS is incompetent, just unaware.

The USCG is a disappointment. I have told at least one USCG Commander the name of a diver he killed because he didn't do his job. I told him to go home and share the information with his wife at dinner that night, and to ask her if she was proud of him. He didn't like that.

NEDU knows what it knows, which is not technical diving, but they know recreational diving and they are trying to learn technical diving. Institutional arrogance prevented them from doing so in the past, but this seems to be subsiding under new leadership.

Most state and local authorities are hit and miss, depending on whether they have access to competent local experts. I have encountered some outstanding Medical Examiners with solid outside expert assistance (Los Angeles, CA, Honolulu, HI and Suffolk County, NY) and some staggeringly poor Medical Examiners who you would think would have access to competent experts and use them (Monroe County, FL - repeatedly).

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Not to drive this to the Pub, it’s a lot of work for a non-sexy outcome. No riots regardless of the outcome, there will be no heroes made, no one will come out a winner, and we won’t get Linnea back.

Snow, while grossly negligent, more than likely just suffers from the stupids. She didn’t set out to kill Linnea, but did so because she has a problem with her inability to process a coherent thought. I’m not sure that stupidity is criminally actionable, otherwise a whole lot of folks would be incarcerated.

Well, if someone is texting and driving and they kill someone, they will be charged with manslaughter 9 times out of 10. I think this case is more egregious than texting and driving.

 

[Subfiend]

TRANSCRIPT EXCERPT
NPS ISB INTERVIEW WITH DEBBIE SNOW
11-18-20/10:48 am
Case # NP20154473

2059 Q1: Do you have a way - do you have a way your way of getting me the data from
2060 your dive computer for that dive?
2061
2062 A: Let me see.
2063
2064 Q1: Um, and I - we’ve got thumb drives if you - if you’ve got that ability.
2065
2066 A: Just bring me my computer and her computer and her computer and my iPad.
2067
2068 Q: Her computer?
2069
2070 A: Yeah. I have her computer.
2071 Q: Oh, you have Linnea’s
2072 computer? Awesome.
2073
2074 Q1: Yeah, if you - if - if I can get that diagram that day, I don’t need anything else.
2075
2076 A: What I did is I took pictures of it.
2077
2078 Q1: Did you?
2079
2080 A: So, I can send the pictures to you.
2081
2082 Q: Oh cool.
2083
2084 Q1: Oh excellent, yes. That’ll work great.
2220 Q1: Which - those are wrist computers. Is that how it works?
2221
2222 A: Yes
2223
2224 Q1: Which one’s yours and which one’s hers?
2225
2226 A: This one is mine, and this one’s hers.
2227
2228 Q1: And they just work the same?
2229
2230 A: Yes. The only difference is that mine is air integrated so that I can tell how much
2231 air I have.
2232
2233 Q1: Oh, that’s cool.
2234
2235 A: Yeah, these do not.
2236
2237 Q1: And do you mind if we take a picture of hers and just the prep bag and - and
2238 I’ll have - I’ll give you - you can either text me the pictures or email them to
2239 me what - whatever’ s best for you.
...

2655 Q: Do you have the data- or do you have like the stuff to download hers too or do
2656 you just look...
2657
2658 A: No you just look..

Subsequent text from Snow to Gull Dive Center employee:

 

[VikingDives]

This post is for the mods. Why are @Subfiend 's posts stuck in limbo?

We have a real opportunity here to learn from someone with direct knowledge, and it's my understanding that his posts to this thread are "awaiting moderation."

@Subfiend has provided some of the most interesting, substantive material that I've seen here in some time and I'm puzzled as to why he'd be subjected to the whims of someone with less knowledge, and less experience in the field.

Certainly, his posts haven't been "on the edge" or skirting with violation of the rules, have they?

 

[Bob DBF]

I’m not sure that stupidity is criminally actionable, otherwise a whole lot of folks would be incarcerated.

And at a later time we can discuss the merits of that, however, if they are so stupid that their actions injure or kill others, then action needs to be taken.

If a right thing doesn’t produce desired results, is it still a right thing? Or just a thing?

It's still a right thing, or as I was told by my father, more than once, "don't you ever listen to a f'n word I say"?

 

[rsingler]

This post is for the mods. Why are @Subfiend 's posts stuck in limbo?

@Wookie and I are participating in the thread, so are generally prohibited from moderating at the same time. I've reported your post, which you should have done yourself, as Mods are only automatically notified when a post is reported. I just saw this by chance.
In any case, have just a little patience, eh? Most holds are automated because of the HUGE amount of spam that gets inputted on our Board. I'm guessing all the numerical fields in the post were what flagged it in the software.
He is hardly being "subjected to the whims of someone with less knowledge, and less experience in the field."
Meanwhile, the Mods are all volunteers and work as quickly as they can. I'm sure you'll be seeing what he wrote shortly.

End minor rant.