Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

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4 to 1 on dives deeper than 60ft?
How many hands does an instructor have to get a hold of divers who have a problem?
You get a diver who starts a rapid ascent. You reach for him and if using proper buddy procedures and supervision distance you can maybe grab the buddy and use them also to help slow the ascent. Or you can immediately signal the buddy and have both in sight.
But the others are now not being supervised because the instructor is too occupied with the one having an issue.
One of them starts to get freaked by this and takes off.
Another possible fatality because greed trumps common sense.
Two to one is better.
And 6 to 1 in the first two atmospheres where the most risk of overexpansion is present.
Un freaking believable.

Jim, serious question for you:

What ratios would you think appropriate? Not just for dry suit, but open water or courses that are no more challenging than open water for a student new to the skill.

In situations where I've had more than one buddy team and a buddy lost buoyancy control (upward), I've done a very rapid "stop, think, act" and assessed whether I was confident the diver could correct the situation on their own. If not, step 2 was "is my DM intervening to correct the situation?" Some DMs I work with a lot I can pretty much count on. Others I know before I look I probably can't. If none of the above, I intervene and give the rest of the group the thumbs up.

Not saying this is a good thing: My preference is to teach groups of 2-3 at a time. When the shop gives me a class of 8, I'll usually break them up into two groups of 4 for the dives.
 
4 to 1 on dives deeper than 60ft?
How many hands does an instructor have to get a hold of divers who have a problem?
You get a diver who starts a rapid ascent. You reach for him and if using proper buddy procedures and supervision distance you can maybe grab the buddy and use them also to help slow the ascent. Or you can immediately signal the buddy and have both in sight.
But the others are now not being supervised because the instructor is too occupied with the one having an issue.
One of them starts to get freaked by this and takes off.
Another possible fatality because greed trumps common sense.
Two to one is better.
And 6 to 1 in the first two atmospheres where the most risk of overexpansion is present.
Un freaking believable.
Good question. One of my "best friends" here on SB says I'm incompetent for not being able to predict problems before they happen and to still handle a large class. 🙄

I elect to teach small classes as I'm in a race against my students getting cold and wish to ensure their time underwater is utilized as close to 100% learning/practicing as possible, so 1:2 regardless of topic (when it comes to the limited viz/night/navigation package that I only teach during peak algae blooms in Puget Sound, then its 1:1). While I address student comfort every step of the way in open water, I have to do a separate evaluation for students who come to me already certified. Theoretically, if a student has an unexpected trigger who bolts for the surface, I need to control that student as well as other students to return to the surface. I've read about instructors forcing students to remain at the bottom to disastrous results. This is a class. It is supposed to be fun, or at least not unpleasant. No one will die if we go to the surface, possibly take a break and get out of the water, and collect ourselves. Training can always be delayed. Always.
 
Jim, serious question for you:

What ratios would you think appropriate?
I always taught only in warm sea (mediterranean, Maldives).
Light wet suit or no suit at all...
The point for me is not students/instructor ratios.
The point is that the instructor can also have problems, so he cannot be alone!
A group of students, even just 2 of them, must always be supervised by a coaching team of 2: possibly two full instructors or, in easy conditions, one instructor and one assistant instructor (which is MORE than a divemaster).
I was lucky, as my wife is also an instructor, so I always worked together with her.
We were buddies for years before becoming instructors, so we were used to act as a true team.
A single instructor in the sea with students is a very bad idea for me.
A couple of instructors can train a max number of students equal to 6.
6 students with two instructors is safe enough in the favourable sea conditions in which we were operating.
A single instructor with 3 students is NOT safe.
 
Jim, serious question for you:

What ratios would you think appropriate? Not just for dry suit, but open water or courses that are no more challenging than open water for a student new to the skill.

In situations where I've had more than one buddy team and a buddy lost buoyancy control (upward), I've done a very rapid "stop, think, act" and assessed whether I was confident the diver could correct the situation on their own. If not, step 2 was "is my DM intervening to correct the situation?" Some DMs I work with a lot I can pretty much count on. Others I know before I look I probably can't. If none of the above, I intervene and give the rest of the group the thumbs up.

Not saying this is a good thing: My preference is to teach groups of 2-3 at a time. When the shop gives me a class of 8, I'll usually break them up into two groups of 4 for the dives.
For OW, 2 to 1 if the instructor has confidence that the students are good at that. I never took more than 2 students at a time on the 1st two OW dives. I had a family of 4 and the 1st day I did 4 dives to their 2. One pair at a time. Satisfied that they were good to go, the next day I switched the buddy pairing and took each team one at a time and on the 4th dive the all went. That was the last time I did an OW class that big. It went fine but was a lot of work. After that my OW classes were either private or 2 to 1.
For AOW 2 to 1 or 1 to 1.
UW Nav, I did a class of three but one of the students was also a certified instructor who was getting some additional con-ed for her college classes.
Tech I have had teams of three and one to one for AN/DP
Drysuit, 2 to one max. Usually private though because I had unlimited pool access.
I did take three divers one time for a drysuit OW portion after having had all of them in three pool sessions and was confident in their ability. I called the dive immediately upon descent. Vis was near zero and it wasn't safe. Finished them up individually after that due to scheduling.
The only class I had more than 2 after that were the rescue classes I ran. But those were always tightly controlled and I had assistants and surface support. And most of the stuff is surface work. The underwater stuff was always with a two to one ratio.
I retired last year and I can't imagine any class now with more than a 2 to 1 ratio except for some portions of rescue. Or with a good solid team of 3 for tech.
It really does come down to how many hands do I have. Sometimes 2 is enough for one student.
I'm fortunate that I was selective with who I took on. My own OW instructor had one student that two hands were barely enough to control them.
 
From the PADI list of expelled instructors:

SnowDebra382219MissoulaMT, USA19-Jan-2023
Interesting. The near simultaneous settlement of at least one part of the case, the expulsion of Snow, and announcement of new rules for dry suit diving in classes makes me wonder if PADI has or is near settling their part of the case.
 
Interesting. The near simultaneous settlement of at least one part of the case, the expulsion of Snow, and announcement of new rules for dry suit diving in classes makes me wonder if PADI has or is near settling their part of the case.
All defendants settled. DEBBIE SNOW; GULL SCUBA CENTER, LLC d/b/a GULL DIVE CENTER; HEIDI HOUCK; PADI WORLDWIDE CORPORATION; PADI AMERICAS, INC.; and JOHN DOES 1-10. That's what the order means.

Had only one entity settled the others would not have been part of the settlement agreement.
 
All defendants settled. DEBBIE SNOW; GULL SCUBA CENTER, LLC d/b/a GULL DIVE CENTER; HEIDI HOUCK; PADI WORLDWIDE CORPORATION; PADI AMERICAS, INC.; and JOHN DOES 1-10. That's what the order means.

Had only one entity settled the others would not have been part of the settlement agreement.
Got it. I just wasn't sure all plaintiffs settled. (E.g., perhaps all defendants settled only with E.G.). It's this line that made me realize all the plaintiffs settled:

"Plaintiffs have reached an agreement to settle and release all claims against Defendants, Debra Snow, Gull Scuba Center, LLC d/b/a Gull Dive Center, PADI Worldwide Corporation and PADI Americas, Inc. (hereinafter “Defendants”), set forth in Cause No. DV-21-544-NE, currently pending before this court. "

That's all the plaintiffs as I read it, not just E. G.

So this particular order is only necessary because somebody had to rule that mom could represent E. G. in court I guess?
 
Got it. I just wasn't sure all plaintiffs settled. (E.g., perhaps all defendants settled only with E.G.). It's this line that made me realize all the plaintiffs settled:

"Plaintiffs have reached an agreement to settle and release all claims against Defendants, Debra Snow, Gull Scuba Center, LLC d/b/a Gull Dive Center, PADI Worldwide Corporation and PADI Americas, Inc. (hereinafter “Defendants”), set forth in Cause No. DV-21-544-NE, currently pending before this court. "

That's all the plaintiffs as I read it, not just E. G.

So this particular order is only necessary because somebody had to rule that mom could represent E. G. in court I guess?
Not represent, but to settle the case on E.G.'s behalf. Court approval is often required for minor settlements, especially if a lump sum is being paid that is intended to cover future treatments, to confirm the best interests of the minor are being looked after.
 
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