Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Wookie]

I think the problem, LiteFoot (great name, by the way), is that you don't know what you don't know. In this particular case, how would the victim have known that not having a inflator hose connected would be key in her death? She hadn't taken either the academic or confined water work that would have taught her that.

Perhaps she should have had her spidey sense go off when weights or rocks were being affixed to her that she couldn't ditch. Openwater courses explicitly teach that the most important aspect of a weight system is the ability to ditch it quickly. However, even there, there's a lot of trust put on instructors. If the instructor indicates it'll be OK, you tend to let that over-ride the book-learning. In my early days of diving (as in first 20 dives post-certification) I often dove with a biology professor (I was an undergrad at the time) who was dangerous. As a newby, there was no doubt I'd empty my tank first. He encourage me to do that, and surface when the tank was empty. Contrary to my training. But this was a marine biologist, with a lot of diving experience, so that's what I did.

That is was cold? Well, it's cold in Montana. It's also cold in Puget Sound. It's cold a lot of places. Other than putting her in a drysuit that she wasn't trained to use, I'm not sure cold had much to do with this situation. Even in a wetsuit, there's a line between uncomfortable and hypothermic. I can dive Puget Sound in a wetsuit year-round. I've done it for decades, and only got hypothermic once, on the 4th dive of the day in February doing work that was pretty much stationary on the bottom.

Y’all haven’t read everything posted.

She had a dive with Snow earlier, maybe the weekend before, in Seeley Lake, wearing 2 wetsuits, and about froze to hypothermic.

Snow not only told her she should be in a drysuit, she suggested where she could get one. Linnea bought the drysuit from the third party.

We don’t know if she received any instruction or advice regarding the drysuit. Because she is dead. And no one else is telling the full story.

 

[Litefoot]

Oh boy! Let me restate my original assertion about the younger generation because I agree that it wasn't fair. It is my "opinion" that social media and the opportunity for instant notoriety can affect a person's judgment and perhaps encourage him or her to try something that they might otherwise have judged to be unwise, inappropriate, or dangerous. These acts against better judgment are observed primarily, but not exclusively, in the younger generation. But I mostly blame social media, not so much the younger crowd.

I'm not an old fart spouting drivel. I mountain bike regularly. with youngsters. My son's girlfriend had a crash that became "face plant of the week" on Instagram overnight. I dare anyone to name a person who mountain bikes regularly who hasn't had a significant injury.

We don't know what happened. The fault lies squarely in the lap of the instructor/operators. And I hope this young woman's family finds peace. But I hope too that we'll hug our own kids and grandkids a little harder and let them know they are cherished.

Anyway, I’m sorry I derailed this thread.

 

[PirateFoxy]

I'm not an old fart spouting drivel. I mountain bike regularly. with youngsters. My son's girlfriend had a crash that became "face plant of the week" on Instagram overnight. I dare anyone to name a person who mountain bikes regularly who hasn't had a significant injury.

Ironically enough, my brother bikes and mountain bikes all the time and as far as I can remember, none of his serious injuries have been from the biking. (He managed to quite impressively sprain his ankle - like months of PT and recovery and possible surgery impressive - playing pick up soccer with some coworkers though.) His wife broke both wrists once, though, and their daughter got a concussion from an accident where she flipped off her bike. (Not the same accidents.). I think my brother just saves up his injury debt for other activities.

Back on topic: Is it reasonable to assume we're unlikely to learn any more of the actual details/facts since the case has been settled? I was hoping we'd find out more about what exactly happened.

 

[inquis]

none of his serious injuries have been from the biking

Nor mine. It's the abrupt dismount that usually does me in.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

Y’all haven’t read everything posted.

She had a dive with Snow earlier, maybe the weekend before, in Seeley Lake, wearing 2 wetsuits, and about froze to hypothermic.

Snow not only told her she should be in a drysuit, she suggested where she could get one. Linnea bought the drysuit from the third party.

We don’t know if she received any instruction or advice regarding the drysuit. Because she is dead. And no one else is telling the full story.

Mea culpa.

Fair enough. That she needed a drysuit in these conditions seems reasonable. But that it was too cold to dive seems a little too far to claim. The weather wasn't the problem, beyond her need for a drysuit.

I'm not sure I'll concede on the dry suit training. The plaintiffs allege "Prior to November 1, 2020, the Gull Dive Defendants, and particularly Snow and Liston, knew that Linnea had not received the required orientation to dry suits in a confined water environment." They may have given "instruction or advice" but at least that key pool experience is alleged to have been skipped.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Mea culpa.

Fair enough. That she needed a drysuit in these conditions seems reasonable. But that it was too cold to dive seems a little too far to claim. The weather wasn't the problem, beyond her need for a drysuit.

I'm not sure I'll concede on the dry suit training. The plaintiffs allege "Prior to November 1, 2020, the Gull Dive Defendants, and particularly Snow and Liston, knew that Linnea had not received the required orientation to dry suits in a confined water environment." They may have given "instruction or advice" but at least that key pool experience is alleged to have been skipped.

I can't speak for you, but no way would I take someone who has never used a dry suit into the Puget Sound without a pool session. It is one thing to be told something, it is another to actually practice it in a pool before going into open water.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

I can't speak for you, but no way would I take someone who has never used a dry suit into the Puget Sound without a pool session. It is one thing to be told something, it is another to actually practice it in a pool before going into open water.

Please speak for me. I can't fathom the thought process that says that's OK. I'd never take a dry suit student (or one doing the AOW dry suit dive) out in Puget Sound without the pool session first.

I know some instructors (none I work with) do "confined water" in Lake Washington, but I can't figure out where you enter and have "pool-like" visibility. And I still wouldn't want to do it: I don't want to cut off a good learning opportunity because students are cold.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I know some instructors (none I work with) do "confined water" in Lake Washington, but I can't figure out where you enter and have "pool-like" visibility. And I still wouldn't want to do it: I don't want to cut off a good learning opportunity because students are cold.

I know a couple parks that with calm weather do fit the pool like conditions in terms of clarity, depth, and calmness. Even temperature (not a requirement). However, I think it would be an easier transition to the open water from a Lake Washington park on a cool fall day (September/October) with overcast conditions and no wind where they are wearing the same undergarments. That's ideal if you ask me. You of course have to go through the weighting process twice in fresh water and later salt water.

I haven't done it, but if I were to, I'd first do a dry (wet?) run with a friend who is already certified and "run" them through a dry suit (or open water) course before getting approval from my agency to use such a park.

 

[Subfiend]

Back on topic: Is it reasonable to assume we're unlikely to learn any more of the actual details/facts since the case has been settled? I was hoping we'd find out more about what exactly happened.

No. I plan to come back on here in the next few days to clear up some of the misstatements of fact and answer questions if anyone is interested.

David Concannon

 

[formernuke]

My understanding is that PADI is still in suit and has not settled yet