Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[MrVegas]

On January 27, 2023, there was an order of dismissal entered indicating claims against Defendants Snow and Gull Dive had been settled. As of that date, no indication of an order of dismissal for PADI or the individual selling the drysuit. It is pure speculation, but perhaps the rest of the case has been settled and details are being worked out before final dismissal of the other parties, or perhaps claims are still proceeding against those parties. The only way to know for certain is to request the records from the clerk of courts. Those are public records, but not made available on the clerk's website. You have to request them and pay for copies.

 

[tursiops]

PADI list of expelled instructors:

I'm not on the above list, but I know GUE maternity ward has me on their database. Too many cry babies.

Are you saying you are an expelled GUE instructor?

 

[Litefoot]

Good question. One of my "best friends" here on SB says I'm incompetent for not being able to predict problems before they happen and to still handle a large class.

I elect to teach small classes as I'm in a race against my students getting cold and wish to ensure their time underwater is utilized as close to 100% learning/practicing as possible, so 1:2 regardless of topic (when it comes to the limited viz/night/navigation package that I only teach during peak algae blooms in Puget Sound, then its 1:1). While I address student comfort every step of the way in open water, I have to do a separate evaluation for students who come to me already certified. Theoretically, if a student has an unexpected trigger who bolts for the surface, I need to control that student as well as other students to return to the surface. I've read about instructors forcing students to remain at the bottom to disastrous results. This is a class. It is supposed to be fun, or at least not unpleasant. No one will die if we go to the surface, possibly take a break and get out of the water, and collect ourselves. Training can always be delayed. Always.

I was certified in FL with one instructor and four students. The other students had done multiple Intro sessions. I had done one in Maui some 20 years previous. We had 3-4 foot seas during the OW dives, so we were rocking around pretty good. I never thought that the ratio was a bit too much, but I can see now how things could have turned out pretty bad if one of us or even the instructor had issues. I guess as instructors, you probably have to weigh all those factors (weather, previous experience, surface support, maturity level, etc) when making a call about student/instructor ratios.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I was certified in FL with one instructor and four students. The other students had done multiple Intro sessions. I had done one in Maui some 20 years previous. We had 3-4 foot seas during the OW dives, so we were rocking around pretty good. I never thought that the ratio was a bit too much, but I can see now how things could have turned out pretty bad if one of us or even the instructor had issues.

Yeah, those conditions I have cancelled. But hypotically, let's say I would teach in such conditions (though I wouldn't). I'd do double the dives and a 1:2 ratio, even if I had full confidence in the students' buoyancy control, the confined water sessions are done in pool like conditions. Swells like that are a huge stress factor for some people. I might do 1:1 for OW1 as there is no limit to the number of dives that the instructor does as then I can evaluate my students with undivided attention with how they are handling the waves.

Again, I also have to manage student's comfort level. Here they get cold if they are not in a dry suit. I do have a 10'x10' tent that I could set up. If I knew that the seas were to be that way and my students didn't want to defer, I would stagger their arrival time so they are not sitting around. There are many things to consider.

And also again, I've cancelled for those kind of conditions. Having students fall over getting in/out of cold water up a steep, rocky slope is not a risk I'm willing to take.

I guess as instructors, you probably have to weigh all those factors (weather, previous experience, surface support, maturity level, etc) when making a call about student/instructor ratios.

It depends. If the instructor teaches for a shop it comes down to teach at max ratio or there's the door. There have been a number of instructors in my area who have been let go as a result of refusing to teach in a manner that they deemed unsafe.

That's one of the problems I have with agencies putting the responsibility on the instructor. If there was an incident, they can always claim that the instructor didn't reduce ratios enough. The shop can say the same thing. It is the instructor who gets thrown under the bus. Instructors are completely expendible as they are easily replaced, no matter how good they are. Only the quality dive centers actually care. Those are not the majority in my region.

The changes PADI made are improvements, but fairly marginal. It is like the significance of new instructor candidates needing to be neutrally buoyant in 2 skills in order to receive a 4 or 5. That's a joke considering the article of moving to neutral buoyancy written by Adsit, Rothschild, Turner, and others was published about 10 years before PADI made that change.

And before people accuse me of PADI bashing, this is factual. And I have the same criticism for all agencies, including my own, that do not require all skills to be neurally buoyant and trimmed. This isn't rocket science. The amount of physics required to understand why we do certain things and how to address changes in pressure are not exactly intellectually challenging.

I do believe that agencies should give guidelines for conditions where reduction in ratios is mandatory. I would expect the counterargument is that they would assume some liability if they were to do so and an incident occurred where the instructor reduced ratios per the agency guidelines. Well, in all likelihood, the ratio would have been higher in most cases if such guidelines didn't exist like they don't exist now.

 

[Litefoot]

It depends. If the instructor teaches for a shop it comes down to teach at max ratio or there's the door. There have been a number of instructors in my area who have been let go as a result of refusing to teach in a manner that they deemed unsafe.

I didn't know that. In hindsight, I would like to have talked to my instructor to see how she felt about having 4 students by herself in those conditions.

 

[Aura]

I cannot help but notice that the rising generation seems to lack a sense of self-preservation and are willing to endanger themselves to get a "like"; to get noticed. Maybe my generation hasn't done enough to teach them the sanctity of life.

Which part of doing a course with a certified instructor do you find reckless?
In my own experience, those who have been diving for several decades seem to care considerably less about safety than those my own age. Whose carelessness let a student die in this case?

 

[Litefoot]

Those in a position of trust clearly failed this young woman,

Aura, I wish you had included this part of my post. You are right. She was the victim of extreme carelessness and neglect. But each of us is equipped with a conscience that self-triggers when things don't feel safe. In her case, there should have been many self-preservation triggers including the extreme weather and the equipment problems. But I'm speaking from my own experience and I'm old enough to be her grandfather. So maybe I'm expressing what I hope my own grandchildren would do.

 

[Aura]

Aura, I wish you had included this part of my post. You are right. She was the victim of extreme carelessness and neglect. But each of us is equipped with a conscience that self-triggers when things don't feel safe. In her case, there should have been many self-preservation triggers including the extreme weather and the equipment problems. But I'm speaking from my own experience and I'm old enough to be her grandfather. So maybe I'm expressing what I hope my own grandchildren would do.

I just don't recall anything that suggested she did anything for likes. As far as I recall, she wanted to get seriously into diving, and was doing it in the exact right way by getting training.
Most open water courses in my part of the world are done in drysuit and conditions similar to what they were diving in, and there is no issue. All it takes is an instructor who cares about safety. Same goes for the equipment issues. She had never been taught how to use a drysuit, so when an instructor told her to go ahead with the dive and everything was fine, I doubt many people in her position would have said no. Because they wouldn't have known better. That has nothing to do with her age.

 

[ginti]

Aura, I wish you had included this part of my post. You are right. She was the victim of extreme carelessness and neglect. But each of us is equipped with a conscience that self-triggers when things don't feel safe. In her case, there should have been many self-preservation triggers including the extreme weather and the equipment problems. But I'm speaking from my own experience and I'm old enough to be her grandfather. So maybe I'm expressing what I hope my own grandchildren would do.

Hi Litefoot, I trust your good intentions, but it really works differently. There is no conscience that self-triggers when things don't feel safe. It is a matter of:
(1) attitude towards risks;
(2) situation awareness that STRONGLY depends on previous experiences.
I cannot imagine how you can judge any of these points without knowing Linnea personally. Given her inexperience with diving, she was (reasonably) trusting the instructors about stuff she simply did NOT know and, therefore, was NOT able to judge. It is quite possible (not sure, not likely, just possible) that she was quite a risk-averse person with the bit of information we have (except if you have more info, in which case I will shut up and apologize immediately).
If yours was a generic comment about the youngest generation, let me say that it should be backed by some statistics - otherwise, it is nonsense, given that most activities are safer nowadays than in the past (e.g. we risk less). If it's just an impression from social media, it is likely to be biased since socials tend to amplify the craziest things while hiding the others. And safe stuff is clearly among the others (unfortunately, very unfortunately).

I don't want to be rude with this message; my apologies if my post seems like this. I am just not a native English speaker, and it is hard sometimes to find kind words to express a different perspective.

Cheers, and dive safe

 

[Seaweed Doc]

In her case, there should have been many self-preservation triggers including the extreme weather and the equipment problems.

I think the problem, LiteFoot (great name, by the way), is that you don't know what you don't know. In this particular case, how would the victim have known that not having a inflator hose connected would be key in her death? She hadn't taken either the academic or confined water work that would have taught her that.

Perhaps she should have had her spidey sense go off when weights or rocks were being affixed to her that she couldn't ditch. Openwater courses explicitly teach that the most important aspect of a weight system is the ability to ditch it quickly. However, even there, there's a lot of trust put on instructors. If the instructor indicates it'll be OK, you tend to let that over-ride the book-learning. In my early days of diving (as in first 20 dives post-certification) I often dove with a biology professor (I was an undergrad at the time) who was dangerous. As a newby, there was no doubt I'd empty my tank first. He encourage me to do that, and surface when the tank was empty. Contrary to my training. But this was a marine biologist, with a lot of diving experience, so that's what I did.

That is was cold? Well, it's cold in Montana. It's also cold in Puget Sound. It's cold a lot of places. Other than putting her in a drysuit that she wasn't trained to use, I'm not sure cold had much to do with this situation. Even in a wetsuit, there's a line between uncomfortable and hypothermic. I can dive Puget Sound in a wetsuit year-round. I've done it for decades, and only got hypothermic once, on the 4th dive of the day in February doing work that was pretty much stationary on the bottom.