I, too, would like to know exactly where the standards have been dumbed down. If you say you have seen them, then you must be able to cite specific instances.
Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park
- Thread starter Jim Lapenta
- Start date
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Maybe no more underwater combat/harassment training that I've only heard instructors used to do? Can't say as that was way before my time. You know, all those pointless exercises?
How about you fellows take this discussion to another thread. It's all been said before, many many times and by you same fellows.
@chillyinCanada - Yes, the erroneous claims of "dumbing down standards" is repetitive, but I feel correcting the latest resurfacing of the myth is important. (My first post in this thread, BTW, though I've followed it from Day 1.)
Honestly, whatever the standards were in the past were not relevant. Standards from all agencies today are sufficient to produce autonomous divers IF the instructor teaches appropriately.
This was not an open water class. This was an AOW class in which the deceased was woefully unprepared and key steps by the instructor were not put in place to ensure a safe, productive course. We can all agree that this tragedy should not have happened. These things and more have been discussed.
Now we are essentially waiting for the trial.
For those who blame PADI standards for being weaker, start a separate thread, but be specific, cite old instructor manual's etc..
This was not an open water class. This was an AOW class in which the deceased was woefully unprepared and key steps by the instructor were not put in place to ensure a safe, productive course. We can all agree that this tragedy should not have happened. These things and more have been discussed.
Now we are essentially waiting for the trial.
For those who blame PADI standards for being weaker, start a separate thread, but be specific, cite old instructor manual's etc..
Not the paper standards written in the book, they’ll be very thoroughly reviewed, but how about the agency? Does PADI et al. carry some portion of the blame for a lack of quality control among their customers, or is their proper role strictly course development and advertising? Obviously everyone’s lawyers will be busy busy writing wavers that cram that liability as far down the chain as it can possibly go, but what is the overall place of agencies in the rec diving industry? What good are they?
There will always be little gotchas in the fine print, that’s for judges and insurance to pick apart. My inclination is to blame the victim: it was pretty obvious in retrospect that the whole scene was out of control.
It’s a more general question though: how should training agencies make their way in todays world? Used to be your local dive shop was a retail and travel operation that ran courses as an advertising expense. That never really made sense but it worked well enough for decades. Now in this Information Age with divegearexpress.com, liveaboard.com, this forum, and the like that ecosystem is changing. Flogging poodle jackets off the rack can’t pay for very high quality individual training anymore, if it ever could. Complaints about the ever-sliding quality of instruction may be valid, but who pays to fix it? What role should agencies play in that flow of money and responsibility?
OP
While standards may not have been dumbed down, there are some items missing that used to be part of most OW courses. Buddy breathing, rescue skills, gear doff and don, etc.
Are those necessary? Maybe not but they were great skills for confidence and comfort in the water.
Where standards do play a role is ratios. Refusing to lower them because only a few people die every year due to separation from the instructor doesn't inspire much confidence in an agency.
Leaving the decision to say conditions are fine for more than one or two students solely up to the judgement of the instructor has resulted in several deaths, numerous rapid ascents based on reports, panicked divers, and I can only guess at how many unreported injuries is another standards fail.
That judgement is often based on ego and over confidence as well as the "nothing bad has happened to me before" line of horsecrap.
It can also be based for a new instructor on seeing how their own far more experienced instructor handled things. Then the stuff hits the fan and they are lost because the 7-10 day IDC in ideal conditions didn't prepare them in any way for colder, low vis, silty diving. It was cramming to pass a test. Not how to actually teach a class or handle divers in any kind of stressful situation.
Standards allow a brand new instructor who has never taught in cold water to pass their IE in the tropics and move to the Northeast US and teach a class with checkouts in a cold dark quarry. With no experience in those conditions. That's a standards fail.
Are those necessary? Maybe not but they were great skills for confidence and comfort in the water.
Where standards do play a role is ratios. Refusing to lower them because only a few people die every year due to separation from the instructor doesn't inspire much confidence in an agency.
Leaving the decision to say conditions are fine for more than one or two students solely up to the judgement of the instructor has resulted in several deaths, numerous rapid ascents based on reports, panicked divers, and I can only guess at how many unreported injuries is another standards fail.
That judgement is often based on ego and over confidence as well as the "nothing bad has happened to me before" line of horsecrap.
It can also be based for a new instructor on seeing how their own far more experienced instructor handled things. Then the stuff hits the fan and they are lost because the 7-10 day IDC in ideal conditions didn't prepare them in any way for colder, low vis, silty diving. It was cramming to pass a test. Not how to actually teach a class or handle divers in any kind of stressful situation.
Standards allow a brand new instructor who has never taught in cold water to pass their IE in the tropics and move to the Northeast US and teach a class with checkouts in a cold dark quarry. With no experience in those conditions. That's a standards fail.
Having greater controls of where an instructor can teach is one aspect that must change for instructors. Completely agreed that conditions anytime in Key Largo are nothing like the Rocky Mountains in winter. Why Snow went to Florida instead of an IDC/IE in Seattle is something I do not know.
Completely agreed on ratio reduction. I'd rather see 1:2 ratio with no more than 4 students to keep the students moving/doing something. Too many open water students spend the majority of their time on their knees, waiting, and getting cold. It isn't just about safety (though that is the highest priority), but the benefit of the class.
The other thing that needs to go is self-certifying instructors. That's just insane.
