Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Insideout]

So when we are saying that instruction has been watered down, we are talking about individual instructors and not the agency standards, and this is something new. Got it.

Yes and no.
And this may not apply to every agency, but the agency sets the minimum, and that is what the instructors deliver.
I doubt many shops could be competitive if they offered more dives and more comprehensive training for 50% more cost when their competitors will give you the same certificate with the minimum training for less.

I have no idea what has changed in the last 30 years, but I'm not sure why I had to take an Equipment Specialist course to cover the basic care, cleaning and storage that I will need to do after every dive.

I finished my open water having setup my kit maybe 6 times total. If I wanted more hands on I would need to rent the gear, buy my own, or take a class.

So many basics are touched on so briefly that it's simply pathetic. And to put this on the student to figure out is wrong. To leave this at the discretion of the instructor to make time to teach is wrong, the standard needs to be raised.

It is the agencies that are in the business of marketing diver training, and they are trying to encourage as many people to learn as possible, but to appeal to more people they need to keep costs low. The only way is sacrificing quality and reducing training times to the absolute bare minimum.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have no idea what has changed in the last 30 years, but I'm not sure why I had to take an Equipment Specialist course to cover the basic care, cleaning and storage that I will need to do after every dive.

I finished my open water having setup my kit maybe 6 times total. If I wanted more hands on I would need to rent the gear, buy my own, or take a class.

Just to answer your questions...

We had a thread on changes in the last 30 years a few years ago (It was 25 years then). The standards from back then were posted in the thread, and the only thing that had been removed was one regulator buddy breathing, which is now considered too dangerous. It had been replaced with alternate air exchange, which was not in the old standards. The thread identified 15 requirements that had been added in the last 30 years, so today's standards are more thorough than those 30 years ago.

Cleaning and care of equipment is supposed to be covered in the OW class. The equipment specialist should go far beyond that.

The OW course standards call for 5 equipment setups during the pool sessions and once more before each of the 4 OW dives for a total of 9 times.

I have no doubt that many individual instructors will skip standards. That happened when I was certified a quarter century ago. I did not realize how much had been skipped until I became a professional a few years later.

The logical flaw in this argument is the assumption, without evidence, that what you experienced is what everyone experiences. There are hundreds of thousands of instructors in countless agencies around the world--what percentage of that total have you witnessed? My niece became a certified NAUI diver in Okinawa after one short pool session and one OW dive to a maximum depth of 10 feet. It happened, but I do not make the mistake of assuming that all NAUI instructors teach that way. Yes, there are individual instructors who skimp on the instruction, but I have no basis in fact to make even the wildest guess as to a percentage. Doing so would be based on prejudice more than evidence.

I was an instructor with a shop with about a dozen other instructors, and if any standards were skipped in any of our classes, there would have been consequences. The one violation I know of was in an AOW class, where the instructor believed it was necessary to take students deeper than the 100 foot limit so they could truly experience narcosis. He was fired immediately. I later moved to another shop, and I never saw any sign of any instructor skipping any standards. That is my experience, but I do not project to the entire world of scuba.

 

[bendra]

I know I'm late to the party here, but I just want to say thanks for sharing this story and everyone's analysis. This is incredibly scary stuff, and a really important cautionary tale that I hope every diver takes to heart

 

[divezonescuba]

 

[Wookie]

The latest filing, and Facebook post from Lisa Mills.

I have not updated you in a while about the status of our legal case but, with the second anniversary of Linnea’s death happening in a few days, I thought now would be a good time.

We won a significant victory in court yesterday. For the past 10 months, PADI has been withholding evidence of accidents similar to Linnea’s, evidence of its business and sales practices, and evidence of its financial information. This evidence is relevant to show that PADI was aware of accidents caused by the same factors as our daughter’s (there was one death that was strikingly similar to Linnea’s death, with the diver’s dry suit hose disconnected, just 7 months before Linnea died), PADI does not enforce its own standards and membership agreements, and PADI’s net worth will support a significant punitive damages award. Our lawyers went to court to compel PADI to turn over this evidence and, yesterday, the court granted our motion. PADI now has just 30 days from yesterday to produce this information, and we plan to use it when we go to trial against PADI, Gull Dive Center and Debbie Snow next year.

We were rocked in July by the revelation that Debbie Snow was on the surface when our daughter was drowning, and the lawyers for Gull Dive and Snow made sure the dive computer stolen off Linnea’s dead body as she lay on the shore of Lake McDonald was secreted out of state instead of being secured by the National Park Service investigators. We have addressed this with both the Montana State Bar and the U.S. Department of the Interior. We are hopeful that something like this never happens again to any family.

If you are going to the DEMA trade show for the diving industry, make sure you stop by the PADI booth and ask them why they don’t update their training standards in the wake of Linnea’s death. Instead, PADI is marking the anniversary of Linnea’s death with a sale of PADI products beginning November 1st. You can be lucky enough to buy one of these snazzy PADI towel ponchos for 25% off! Buy two! On second thought, don’t. Spend the $30 on your family instead. You never know how long you will have with them.
#scubadiving #scuba #scubaaccidents #linneamills #scubadeaths

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/310212049_633995461738659_3205922581916901224_n.pdf/134-Order-on-Discovery-Motions.pdf?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0cab14&_nc_ohc=VkipVYHucWIAX9a9nAo&_nc_ht=cdn.fbsbx.com&oh=03_AdSRGipLPK59Vy1KgAkGk5iMxEhT-nr5Ajhw2p_wYj7dzA&oe=635DDC79&dl=1

 

[pauldw]

Whatever happened to that dive computer?

 

[Sol]

Good question. Every time I think it can't possibly get worse, they find a way to surprise me.

Makes me feel extra stabby.

 

[Wookie]

Whatever happened to that dive computer?

Hasn’t been seen (at least by the plaintiff) since the accident.

 

[Robert H. Diver]

Hasn’t been seen (at least by the plaintiff) since the accident.

Wow

 

[MiloR]

The latest filing, and Facebook post from Lisa Mills.

I have not updated you in a while about the status of our legal case but, with the second anniversary of Linnea’s death happening in a few days, I thought now would be a good time.

We won a significant victory in court yesterday. For the past 10 months, PADI has been withholding evidence of accidents similar to Linnea’s, evidence of its business and sales practices, and evidence of its financial information. This evidence is relevant to show that PADI was aware of accidents caused by the same factors as our daughter’s (there was one death that was strikingly similar to Linnea’s death, with the diver’s dry suit hose disconnected, just 7 months before Linnea died), PADI does not enforce its own standards and membership agreements, and PADI’s net worth will support a significant punitive damages award. Our lawyers went to court to compel PADI to turn over this evidence and, yesterday, the court granted our motion. PADI now has just 30 days from yesterday to produce this information, and we plan to use it when we go to trial against PADI, Gull Dive Center and Debbie Snow next year.

We were rocked in July by the revelation that Debbie Snow was on the surface when our daughter was drowning, and the lawyers for Gull Dive and Snow made sure the dive computer stolen off Linnea’s dead body as she lay on the shore of Lake McDonald was secreted out of state instead of being secured by the National Park Service investigators. We have addressed this with both the Montana State Bar and the U.S. Department of the Interior. We are hopeful that something like this never happens again to any family.

If you are going to the DEMA trade show for the diving industry, make sure you stop by the PADI booth and ask them why they don’t update their training standards in the wake of Linnea’s death. Instead, PADI is marking the anniversary of Linnea’s death with a sale of PADI products beginning November 1st. You can be lucky enough to buy one of these snazzy PADI towel ponchos for 25% off! Buy two! On second thought, don’t. Spend the $30 on your family instead. You never know how long you will have with them.
#scubadiving #scuba #scubaaccidents #linneamills #scubadeaths

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/310212049_633995461738659_3205922581916901224_n.pdf/134-Order-on-Discovery-Motions.pdf?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0cab14&_nc_ohc=VkipVYHucWIAX9a9nAo&_nc_ht=cdn.fbsbx.com&oh=03_AdSRGipLPK59Vy1KgAkGk5iMxEhT-nr5Ajhw2p_wYj7dzA&oe=635DDC79&dl=1

I don't want to comment much since I have not read much and certainly haven't read all 134 pages of this thread....BUT....I did read that Motion from the link above.

If you go to page 15 line 19 thru page 16 line 8:

"Disputes like this one are especially frustrating to courts because courts have few tools to use to determine who is more correct. Further, to employ those tools requires substantial time and expense, and in the end, the juice may not be worth the squeeze. From the evidence provided, the ORDER ON DISCOVERY MOTIONS Court cannot tell if the PADI Defendants are being misleading or even untruthful about their actual document retention and their efforts to locate responsive documents. In situations like these, the best course of action is usually for a court to require the responding party to fully respond, trust that they have done so when they swear they have done so, and then drop the hammer on them if it is later revealed, such as at a deposition, that they have been less than forthcoming."

Seems like District Court Judge Leslie Halligan is a straight shooter, to me, based solely on these bolded lines (bolded by me). This is a good thing over all for the Family and the Dive Industry in general.

I look forward to the resolution in this issue. I don't think it is going to go well for PADI but full disclosures and transparency can only improve everyone's safety and training. I have personally seen far too many shortcuts taken by Dive Shops in my short time as an Instructor and the time leading up to that.