Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Abcdiveplan]

What life long injuries did Liston have? And I thought Bob Gentry got hurt trying to help Linnea. What injury or dive associated issue did he have after the incident? I remember when this story came out initially and was doing so research to see if the Gull dive shop was still in business, which I hope they aren’t.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Nor do I. It seems to be human nature that some folks gut through and maintain high standards for themselves in their jobs, and others slack off. The ones that maintain impossibly high standards tend to burn out. I was certainly burnt out running a dive boat to my standards, which many didn’t agree with, but in 20 years I was never sued, which counts for something. Jim Lapenta, agree or disagree, burnt out. Perhaps you got tired of fighting with dive shops over your standards vs their standards.

Others slack off. Maybe they slack off by the time they become Course Directors or Instructor Examiners. I know I had zero interest in either rating, as I was of the opinion that maintaining my and my training agency’s standards without feeling real support from the training agency would lead to mental anguish that I would never be able to reconcile.

So perhaps agency standards aren’t watered down. Perhaps it’s a human factor to take the low road every now and again, until the deviation becomes normal. And if the instructor instructor takes the low road, how does the candidate know the difference? I mean, they KNOW the difference, because they can read it in an instructor manual, but then they look around them and see their CD, their IE, and their fellow candidates taking the low road, you get crap instructors.

I’ve told the story many times. In my wife’s IE, every candidate failed to protect the airway of their victim. Including my wife. I was there, on shore, watching. The small difference was that my wife knew she had failed to protect the victim’s airway, she stopped the rescue, and asked for a do-over. The IE allowed her to continue. Normalization of deviance leads to watered down instruction.

I just saw this. Burnout from trying to compete with shops offering one and two weekend certifications with 15 minute checkouts and going through the skills and getting out was a part of my decision to stop teaching. There were other factors including a ridiculous increase in insurance rates due cut rate operations and instructors like this hurting and killing people.
I felt such a sense of relief when I made the decision to get out completely. And at this point while I'd dive with any of the students I trained, I won't even consider diving with anyone I don't know personally. And some I do know I won't get in the water with. I'm safer, more relaxed, and enjoy diving alone.

 

[Insideout]

It would be interesting to know how many certificates Debbie Snow issued and what some of those students experience with her was like.

She was a rather new instructor if I remember correctly.

Like holding any sort of license or certification once you've met the standard, the examiner shakes your hand and turns their back, you're on your own and there's not much stopping one from acting like a jackwagon.

Having the training agencies cleaning up dive shops wouldn't be a bad thing.

- Having "secret shoppers" auditing courses.
- Requiring new instructors work under a more experienced instructor who is monitoring the performance of the new instructor and the progress of their students.
- Requiring that anyone providing instruction hold or work for, report to, and be supervised by someone holding a Course Director certificate.
- Require that all Course Directors be recertified every two years.

But the fast certification over a weekend needs to die. Basic open water isn't hard, but it's probably been over simplified.

The current standard for open water is probably what the PADI supervised "scuba diver" certification should be.

 

[inquis]

The current standard for open water is probably what the PADI supervised "scuba diver" certification should be.

Have you even read the standards? You're effectively saying everyone who passed them shouldn't dive unsupervised. Ludicrous.

I feel you're conflating the standards (which are fine, IMO) and instructors not teaching to the standards.

 

[Searcaigh]

But the fast certification over a weekend needs to die

Totally agree with this, but I've never seen a full course done in a weekend.

My daughter teaches all the pool work on a weekend then the dives over the next weekend.

Basic open water isn't hard, but it's probably been over simplified.

Well it's designed to teach 10 year olds, but even then some adults still can't grasp it from what I've seen!

Having the training agencies cleaning up dive shops wouldn't be a bad thing

100%

Require that all Course Directors be recertified every two years.

I totally agree with this, but why not for instructors too, especially those who don't teach frequently?

 

[Insideout]

Have you even read the standards? You're effectively saying everyone who passed them shouldn't dive unsupervised. Ludicrous.

I feel you're conflating the standards (which are fine, IMO) and instructors not teaching to the standards.

I have read them. The standards have been dumbed down. Several "specialties" have no business being a "specialty" course. Buoyancy, Equipment Specialist, heck even Navigation should be covered to a higher level.

No instructor should be frantically trying to check off boxes before they run out of pool time. No student should be desperately trying to clear their mask so the class can move on to another skill.

Any certified diver who is who is qualified to dive without being monitored by a divemaster or instructor should be confident they can plan a dive, make a sensible go/no go decision, and lead that dive.

There have been threads on here asking that very question, do you feel your course prepared you to dive.

It's no wonder that there are so many idiots on the road. The standard to obtain a drivers license are pretty weak in most jurisdictions.
We have succeeded at doing the same thing for scuba. A few multiple choice questions, cover the most basic skills to the minimum standard or at least close enough, and hand that person a certificate to do... anything. Maybe tomorrow they will dive from a boat even though they've never done it before. Perhaps a night dive. Or gosh darn it, deploying an smb would be real handy right about now. I just wish my instructor demoed that more than once in the pool. Hmm, if only we had discussed gas planning or calculated our RMV just once.

Perhaps if Ms. Mills had covered "dive decision making" or some sort of risk mitigation topic during her open water course, she may have said "this dive is dumb, I'm not doing it today."

Had she simply been an open water student, then the failures would rest solely on the instructor and her general common sense as a student.

Lienna was a certified diver, and any competent diver should have noticed that the risks and uncertainties were stacking up against them, or at least that their instructor was full of it.

I'm not sure how long you've been diving, but think back to what you knew and how confident you were on dive number 7 or 8. What else do you wish you knew back then, what did you have to learn the hard way.

There have also been many posts here pointing out the number of dumb things they've seen divers do, or have done themselves. Is it because these people are fools, or were they run through a program as fast as possible, provided the minimum knowledge to get by, given too little time to practice a skill, and handed a certificate before they were ready.

 

[Insideout]

Totally agree with this, but I've never seen a full course done in a weekend.

My daughter teaches all the pool work on a weekend then the dives over the next weekend.

I totally agree with this, but why not for instructors too, especially those who don't teach frequently?

Well a weekend is an exaggeration.

All instructors wouldn't hurt either. It was just an idea and somewhere to start. But yes, a lot can change if you've been instructing for awhile, and if you haven't been taking the personal initiative to stay current then it's a major disservice to your students.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Totally agree with this, but I've never seen a full course done in a weekend.

Mine was. Pool Friday night, Saturday sunday 2 dives each. I didn't know it at the time, but we skipped quite a few skills. That school is out of business (not Seattle Scuba that is also out of business)

My daughter teaches all the pool work on a weekend then the dives over the next weekend.

That is how most shops do it around here

Well it's designed to teach 10 year olds, but even then some adults still can't grasp it from what I've seen!

Doesn't help when so many are overweighted, on their knees and spend most of their time waiting. Everyone needs repetition and time to acquire skills.

I totally agree with this, but why not for instructors too, especially those who don't teach frequently?

Everybody across the board, regardless of how often they teach.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have see course directors I wouldn't get in the water with. As well as dms and instructors that went through programs based on getting their money and getting them through fast before the next group of suckers arrive.
Just because an instructor doesn't teach a lot of people in a year, doesn't mean they get rusty. My ow course was 6 to 8 weeks. 12-16 hours in the pool and in the classroom. That was the way I was taught to do it as a YMCA instructor.
Rescue skills, gas management, neutral and horizontal skills, and a few other things I didn't get as a diver until dm level.
I would never subject a student to all they had to do in my class over a weekend in the pool. Just way too much to absorb and be proficient at. Just getting through the skills one or two times is rarely sufficient.
And even in a heated pool, more than 2 hours and the student tends to get tired, cold, and miserable.
At that point they are parroting skills. Not demonstrating an understanding of them and doing them by instinct because they have actually learned them.
If you have multiple students its worse.
If an instructor can't look at a new ow student immediately after the last checkout dive and say I'm ok with you to take my kid diving next weekend that is also ow certified and no professional will be present, they have no business handing them a card. That's actually a requirement for some agencies and is what the rstc standard says the new diver should be capable of.

 

[inquis]

The standards have been dumbed down.

Can you back up that claim? My recollection is the only deletion is the buddy-breathing, and there have been numerous additions. IOW, the standards have actually been beefed up.

I agree with much of what you have said regarding the actual instruction, timeline, etc. in some cases, but I feel the blame for unprepared OW divers is on the instructor/shop, NOT the standards.