Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Manatee Diver]

Edit : or does the location (a Nat'l Park) make it federal jurisdiction somehow?

Yes, National Parks are generally Federal jurisdiction.

 

[Omisson]

Wouldnt this be a state case? All the applicable criminal laws would be state laws, I believe.

I suppose there probably could be a federal law that could apply here, but honestly, as egregious as this is, this is not the type of case where the feds get involved.

Local authorities are responsible for standard crime and punishment. So really, shouldnt the question be, Why hasnt the county DA (or, barring that, the state AG) done anything on this?

Edit : or does the location (a Nat'l Park) make it federal jurisdiction somehow?

No. It happened in a federal park. Only the feds have jurisdiction.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Edit : or does the location (a Nat'l Park) make it federal jurisdiction somehow?

As people have already stated who are greater authorities than me, it is on Federal land.

Just wondering how often something like this (criminal negligence) occurs on federal land for a recreational activity. My guess is that some things like companies that provide backcountry camping, canyoneering, skiing, etc., on federal land have all the permits. We do know that in this case Gull Dive Center didn't have one. I would expect the feds to say "hold on" and look into such activities on all federal land, but they may not have the budget to do so and may not be willing to address it until it because a sufficiently large problem in their opinion. I'll ask a friend of mine who is a superintendent in the NPS.

 

[Wookie]

As people have already stated who are greater authorities than me, it is on Federal land.

Just wondering how often something like this (criminal negligence) occurs on federal land for a recreational activity. My guess is that some things like companies that provide backcountry camping, canyoneering, skiing, etc., on federal land have all the permits. We do know that in this case Gull Dive Center didn't have one. I would expect the feds to say "hold on" and look into such activities on all federal land, but they may not have the budget to do so and may not be willing to address it until it because a sufficiently large problem in their opinion. I'll ask a friend of mine who is a superintendent in the NPS.

That’s a tough question.

I held a CUA for diving in the Dry Tortugas. I held a diving and snorkeling by boat permit. There were a ton of requirements I had to meet (amount of oxygen I carried, communications equipment, number of divers on any dive site, dive supervision)

But if you came on the ferry, and camped overnight, and brought your own snorkel gear, you could go snorkeling after the ferry left. If someone died, is that on the ferry (the permit holder) or elsewhere?

From what I know (which may be wrong) they were staying at the lake Macdonald lodge. Does the permit for the lodge allow water sports as a part of their permit? Is it limited to canoeing and kayaking, or does it include swimming, snorkeling and diving? So many things we don’t know that the questions on the forum become almost without value.

 

[PirateFoxy]

First- no one has said she is “significantly at fault”. This is one of the clearest cases of instructor malpractice out there. Many of us have pointed out she was CONTRIBUTORILY NEGLIGENT- from a legal perspective, and identified at least 3 major reasons- including diving with equipment she knew wasn’t working, placing 4x’s the recommended weight in a NON-DITCHABLE configuration, and ignoring several very specific warnings in the educational materials (not task loading, not doing multiple “new” dive parameters at once, not doing a pool with a drysuit before open water, etc)- all of which were expressly discussed in multiple locations in her AOW elearning.

I didn't say I was only reading about it here, did I? There absolutely are people who are claiming it was primarily her fault for doing the dive in the first place in other areas of the internet.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

From what I know (which may be wrong) they were staying at the lake Macdonald lodge. Does the permit for the lodge allow water sports as a part of their permit? Is it limited to canoeing and kayaking, or does it include swimming, snorkeling and diving? So many things we don’t know that the questions on the forum become almost without value.

Frank,
I interpret the following that they were not staying at the lodge.

151. The email Snow was referring to was sent on October 27, 2020 to Nathan Dudden, Joel Wilson, and one other recipient. The email, entitled “Dry Suit Dives,” stated: “Hello everyone. I hope you are prepared for this. The dry suit class is going ahead on schedule to Lake McDonald. We will be doing 2 dives. Some of us are spending the night so we can do a night dive. There is a place in Columbia Falls called Meadow Lake Resort that is very reasonable.

We had to change the plan about the petrified forest due to the snow. We will not be able to get into the campground but I know we can at the Lake McDonald lodge.

Prepare for cold weather. Please bring extra undergarments, extra gloves and hoods if you have them. Nothing worse than putting on wet cold gloves.

We will meet at Gull at 11 am. I will not be able to haul all the tanks up there so someone will need to grab some. We can do that on Sunday/ Plus any extra equipment anyone forgot. If there are any issues or questions let me know at the shop at 406 549- [XXXX] or my cell phone at 406 880-[XXXX]. See ya all on Sunday Thanks Debbie”

152. Nathan Dudden forwarded the “Dry Suit Dives” email to Linnea on October 31, 2020

I don't know if they actually had reservations for Meadow Lake Resort & Condos - Good Times In The Flathead Valley.

Now going back to the question about what material Linnea had read prior we have this:

62. In October 2020, Linnea was recruited to participate in a course of scuba
instruction to be offered by Gull Dive.

63. On or about October 18, 2020, Linnea contacted Gull Dive to inquire about
the availability of an “Advanced class” in scuba instruction.

64. On that day, Snow, on behalf of Gull Dive, responded to Linnea, stating:

“Hi Linnea.
We actually are starting an advanced class next Sunday. We
will have to do two weekends because we have to do four dives.
The next advanced class will not be until February of next year.
We are normally closed on Mondays but if you want to take the
class we can meet you down there so you can get started on the
eLearning or get the book, whichever you prefer. The price is
$250.00 and the book or eLearning is included but must be
finished before class.

Let me know as soon as possible so I know wether to meet you
tomorrow. Thanks

Debbie”

65. Later that same evening, Linnea responded:

“Hi Debbie, thanks for getting back to me. I am free to meet
whenever is convenient for you and do the payment and get the
book.
Is gear included?

So we know that Linnea requested a book. I may have missed it, but we see no mention of when/if she received the book. There is no mention of a dive briefing where you'd do the knowledge review prior to the dive. We will probably have to wait for the trial for that information.

 

[Silverback9]

I guess you didn’t bother to read the 24 screen shots of the AOW training material that I posted, huh?

In the elearning she completed there was more than ample warning that a variety of things this instructor was doing was wrong.

Damn! I knew I forgot something.... Forgive me that I did not check the 126 pages of this thread, for you 24 screen shots of the AOW training material. In the future I will make sure that you have not sprinkled you all knowing wisdom upon the thread.
That said, I can find nothing in the Case documents which says that Linnea did complete the e-learning material. But I did not look that hard.
I HAVE discovered that there is a plethora of "Instructors" that hide behind, "That information is in the e-learning material", rather than to be bothered with covering the material themselves, and assure the information is covered completely. Just because something is in e-learning, does not mean that a student has read it, understands it, or knows how to implement it.
I stand my statement, even if Linnea had completed the e-learning material. An 18-year-old, college student would not have the chops to question her diving instructor, any more than she would question her College Professors.
And lastly, please except my humble apology. I did not realize that once you had given your opinion on a matter, it was a closed topic.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Damn! I knew I forgot something.... Forgive me that I did not check the 126 pages of this thread, for you 24 screen shots of the AOW training material. In the future I will make sure that you have not sprinkled you all knowing wisdom upon the thread.
That said, I can find nothing in the Case documents which says that Linnea did complete the e-learning material. But I did not look that hard.
I HAVE discovered that there is a plethora of "Instructors" that hide behind, "That information is in the e-learning material", rather than to be bothered with covering the material themselves, and assure the information is covered completely. Just because something is in e-learning, does not mean that a student has read it, understands it, or knows how to implement it.
I stand my statement, even if Linnea had completed the e-learning material. An 18-year-old, college student would not have the chops to question her diving instructor, any more than she would question her College Professors.
And lastly, please except my humble apology. I did not realize that once you had given your opinion on a matter, it was a closed topic.

As we posted about the same time, I did dig up and noted Linnea requested a book. I'll have to go back and review PADI standards to see if knowledge reviews are required to be discussed prior to the dive. I would hope that they are, but it has been a while since I've read them, and I don't exactly have a photographic memory. I'd forget my @ss once in a while if it wasn't attached.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Just because e-learning is available, it doesn't mean a shop or instructor uses it. I know a few that don't because e-learning doesn't mean the student actually understood what was covered. The lights may have been on, but nobody was home.
I allowed students to choose it but it never reduced face-to-face classroom time. SDI never intended for it to. It was to be a supplement allowing instructors to spend more time on detailed instruction in areas that required it. I don't know PADI's intention.
And I have seen instructors from all the agencies that offer it use it to churn and burn people through to get some meaningless badge or recognition of quantity over quality.
Given that Linnea asked for the book would indicate that she did not do the e-learning.
I know students who came to me to retake AOW or do my Advanced Skills Workshop told me that the instructor didn't even bother going over the e-learning or the book. They were told to read the relevant chapters and if they had any questions they could ask them between dives. As a result, they didn't know what questions to even ask because the instructor was too lazy to do any classroom time.
It wasn't until later that they even found out there should have been classroom sessions.
And because the class was taught as an intro to advanced dives instead of an actual course with new materials and skills they had to master, it was garbage.
From the testimony and videos, it was clear that Snow did not have control over anyone or anything and didn't give a damn to even give the appearance that she did. And why? Because standards allowed her to do this. Unsafe ratios, combining classes and dives, and allowing her judgment to decide what she could handle.
And as long as these standards remain the same, people will continue to be killed by them.

 

[MrVegas]

Given that Linnea asked for the book would indicate that she did not do the e-learning.

Are you sure? Have you reviewed the exhibits to Defendant Snow's Answer to Plaintiffs' Second Amended Complaint? The filed documents in this case are available for 25 cents per page from the clerk of court.