Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Here is an article on it. The reason the prosecutor gives will shock you also.

Attorney General won't file charges in Glacier Park scuba death

Jun. 23—The U.S. Attorney's office of Montana has declined to press criminal charges against a dive instructor who was involved in a incident where a Missoula woman drowned in Glacier National Park's Lake McDonald. On Nov. 1, 2020, Linnea Rose Mills, 18, was diving with a group near the dock at...

www.yahoo.com

Chances are the prosecutor knows nothing about diving. Edit: People go to prison for texting while driving and kill someone as a result of the distraction. I see this case as even worse than that.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Chances are the prosecutor knows nothing about diving. Edit: People go to prison for texting while driving and kill someone as a result of the distraction. I see this case as even worse than t

You would be correct in that assumption. The AUSA also did not consider all the evidence because they did not have it at the time they decided not to file charges.
I also know the AUSA's office is pretty upset about being called out for their incompetence. I sent letters to her supervisor and AG Garland regarding this.
In them, I noted where they failed and how.
And given the new evidence of the dive computer handling fiasco, they should be cited for misconduct for not re-opening the case.

 

[kaylee_ann]

You would be correct in that assumption. The AUSA also did not consider all the evidence because they did not have it at the time they decided not to file charges.
I also know the AUSA's office is pretty upset about being called out for their incompetence. I sent letters to her supervisor and AG Garland regarding this.
In them, I noted where they failed and how.
And given the new evidence of the dive computer handling fiasco, they should be cited for misconduct for not re-opening the case.

my theory too is they're waiting to see how the lawsuit plays out, to look at their chances of winning the case. don't know if that's way off though

 

[Manatee Diver]

People go to prison for texting while driving and kill someone as a result of the distraction. I see this case as even worse than that.

Feds vs state. Federal prosecutors often only take cases that they can 100% win, complex neglience case that depends on the jury not seeing scuba as high risk activity, while understanding how overweighting and lack of inflator hose were major issues. With the Snow attorneys likely saying that Gull pressured her to do the class before the end of the diving seasons, while Gull will likely claim that they expected Snow to follow standards. That isn't an easy case. A state prosecutor might take a chance on it, but a Fed is going to pass on it unless they have a hard on for the people involved.

 

[Omisson]

This reminds me of a question that came up when I was discussing this with my SO - I've never done any dive training so I have no idea what is included in OW training, never mind instructor training, but I've noticed a lot of people discussing this incident making the argument that Mills is significantly at fault because she should have known better because based on her OW training she should have refused to do the dive due to various factors (no weight check, etc.) because certified divers are ultimately responsible for themselves, or something along those lines. But being able to be independent in that way and stand up to an instructor and not just go along because of course the instructor must know best is itself a skill (and also from my experience seems a bit of a personalty type thing also - I've met some people who I think it would be exceptionally difficult to teach to have that attitude.)

So is that skill addressed explicitly in OW training? Or are divers just told "yes, you should do this, this is good" and then they were told to do so and if they don't it's on them? Are instructors encouraged to refuse to certify divers whom they believe are unable to approach diving with the necessary independently responsible attitude?

What about instructors for subsequent classes? If someone is certified by someone else they may not have had the caliber of training you'd want as an instructor - are you as instructor for those classes encouraged to just refuse to teach/dive with a student if you feel like they're not competent enough, including on the subject of being a confident independent diver?

First- no one has said she is “significantly at fault”. This is one of the clearest cases of instructor malpractice out there. Many of us have pointed out she was CONTRIBUTORILY NEGLIGENT- from a legal perspective, and identified at least 3 major reasons- including diving with equipment she knew wasn’t working, placing 4x’s the recommended weight in a NON-DITCHABLE configuration, and ignoring several very specific warnings in the educational materials (not task loading, not doing multiple “new” dive parameters at once, not doing a pool with a drysuit before open water, etc)- all of which were expressly discussed in multiple locations in her AOW elearning.

Second, this was a tragedy that could have been avoided in a myriad of ways- most of which were the instructor’s call but quite frankly, why would anyone get into equipment you knew didn’t work? Why would any recreational diver place all their weight in a non-ditchable location on any dive? Not withstanding 4xs the amount recommended without questioning it?

So, simply put- while it’s true “you don’t know what you don’t know” you are supposed to know what you were taught. And even if the prior instruction OW was deficient (and there is no proof of that) the AOW elearning should have resolved that theoretical knowledge. We were dealing with a college student who was a marine biology major…. Reading comprehension is sort of a reasonable presumption….

 

[Omisson]

Linnea Mills had a total of 5 dives under her belt when she showed up at Gull Dives in Montana on Oct. 19, 2020. Her four OW training dives had been in warm water in 2017, her one other dive on the Great Barrier Reef in 2018, was also warm water. None of the five dives had been in wetsuits. At the time of her death, she was 18. She had 1 dive with "Instructor" Debbie Snow in Lake McDonald on Oct. 25, 2020. She wore TWO 7mm wetsuits for the first of her AOW dives to stay warm, which meant, she could hardly move. She had no predive instruction, no post dive instruction. After the dive, Linnea was told to buy a dry suit by Ms. Snow before the next dive on Nov. 1, 2020. She was put in touch with a Kendra Potter, from whom Linnea could purchase a used Dry suit. She bought the dry suit on or about Oct. 29, 2020. She knew nothing of dry suit use and was not given instruction, nor the opportunity to try the dry suit, in a confined water setting (swimming pool) before the open water dive of Nov. 1, 2020, as is required by PADI Standards. When the group got to McDonald Lake on the morning of Nov. 1, 2020, it was discovered that Linnea did not have an inflator hose for the dry suit. She was instructed that it would be fine, and Debbie Snow loaded Linnea down with 44 pounds of NON-DITCHABLE lead, and then buddied her up with another student, Robert Gentry.

This 18-year-old girl, with a total of 6 dives, trusted her instructor to teach her properly and follow the PADI Standards. She died because of that trust.

When Snow discovered that Linnea, had no inflator hose for the dry suit, the dive for Linnea should have been cancelled.

How many 18 year-olds do you know with 6 dives, would know enough to even ask questions, much less confront an Instructor?

This is the problem; people go to Instructors to learn a skill. They place their trust in that person to train them safely. They do not have the experience to know, what they don't know. There is no questioning, or unsureness, because they don't know. As experienced divers, we can sit back and pontificate about how this 18 year-old, wet behind the ears, diver with a total of 6 dives, 5 of which were 2-3 years prior, in warm water, SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER, so she is at fault. I won't...

So, to answer the question, No. Even if Linnea had the personality at 18 to push back and question the "Instructor". She did not have the experience to see and understand the danger she was in the moment she walked into Gull Dive on Oct. 19, 2020.

I guess you didn’t bother to read the 24 screen shots of the AOW training material that I posted, huh?

In the elearning she completed there was more than ample warning that a variety of things this instructor was doing was wrong.

No one argues it was an instructor failure…all folks here are saying is that Mills -legally speaking- partially contributed to this tragedy in either ignoring the very clear warnings contained in the elearning- or not taking them seriously. It’s a legal analysis to say she was contributorily negligent - it doesn’t mean she was “at fault”.

BUT to claim she “didn’t have the experience” to understand the danger- no - that’s not a reasonable take. Every lesson in scuba talks about ditchable weight, checking equipment works, and not pushing limits.

 

[Omisson]

Feds vs state. Federal prosecutors often only take cases that they can 100% win, complex neglience case that depends on the jury not seeing scuba as high risk activity, while understanding how overweighting and lack of inflator hose were major issues. With the Snow attorneys likely saying that Gull pressured her to do the class before the end of the diving seasons, while Gull will likely claim that they expected Snow to follow standards. That isn't an easy case. A state prosecutor might take a chance on it, but a Fed is going to pass on it unless they have a hard on for the people involved.

Absolutely correct. The US Attorney would rather pass on a case if they feel there could be any issue getting a plea or a verdict. They want to maintain the illusion of being unbeatable- and with a 97% conviction rate and 98% plea rate… that’s the image they project.

 

[Vicko]

I don't know how the legal mubo jumbo works over there but I have a question.
During the course I as a instructor have a duty of care not related to my particular organisation. If I loaded up my student with 20kg of weights, get her a incomplete piece of gear and told her don't worry about it, in Croatia I would be a murderer.
The thing that's bothering me is that the people defending PADI here are ignoring the fact that this girl was not killed by one bad PADI instructor.


Her previous OWD instructor did not teach her about different diving conditions, weighting and buoyancy control. I'm particulary miffed by this because i reported a instructor and facility in Thailand as I kept getting customers who attempted to kill themselves and me, which is impressive as I live half a planet away from him and yet he is still teaching. So if PADI advertises that they are in control of their instructors, and that the program they teach is safe why do people who obviously do not follow PADI standards and get reported with proof still keep their status?

 

[Omisson]

my theory too is they're waiting to see how the lawsuit plays out, to look at their chances of winning the case. don't know if that's way off though

Unlikely. The US Attorney has its own “math” on taking cases- and rarely does it change absent tremendous public interest (unlikely here) or some massive revelation in discovery that points to overt criminal negligence by the instructor (some Tex message acknowledging the danger, etc)…

it’s simply how the feds operate..

 

[Omisson]

I don't know how the legal mubo jumbo works over there but I have a question.
During the course I as a instructor have a duty of care not related to my particular organisation. If I loaded up my student with 20kg of weights, get her a incomplete piece of gear and told her don't worry about it, in Croatia I would be a murderer.
The thing that's bothering me is that the people defending PADI here are ignoring the fact that this girl was not killed by one bad PADI instructor.


Her previous OWD instructor did not teach her about different diving conditions, weighting and buoyancy control. I'm particulary miffed by this because i reported a instructor and facility in Thailand as I kept getting customers who attempted to kill themselves and me, which is impressive as I live half a planet away from him and yet he is still teaching. So if PADI advertises that they are in control of their instructors, and that the program they teach is safe why do people who obviously do not follow PADI standards and get reported with proof still keep their status?

How do you know ANYTHING about what the previous instructor in OW taught or didn’t? There has been ZERO evidence about that. Moreover- it is clear that in all the PADI materials there is CLEAR warnings and rules which the diver violated.

Its exactly the sort of unfounded speculation that you assert as fact- that is why 90% of this thread is useless.