Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[PirateFoxy]

This is an assumption that Snow knew the standards. You are making gross assumptions about Mills training and what she was taught.

While each individual is always responsible for themselves, there is frequently a dismissal by instructors/dive centers of standards ("you don't need to know that"). Customers see instructors as the expert. That doesn't absolve customers of responsibility, but the reality is that it does impact dive safety.

This reminds me of a question that came up when I was discussing this with my SO - I've never done any dive training so I have no idea what is included in OW training, never mind instructor training, but I've noticed a lot of people discussing this incident making the argument that Mills is significantly at fault because she should have known better because based on her OW training she should have refused to do the dive due to various factors (no weight check, etc.) because certified divers are ultimately responsible for themselves, or something along those lines. But being able to be independent in that way and stand up to an instructor and not just go along because of course the instructor must know best is itself a skill (and also from my experience seems a bit of a personalty type thing also - I've met some people who I think it would be exceptionally difficult to teach to have that attitude.)

So is that skill addressed explicitly in OW training? Or are divers just told "yes, you should do this, this is good" and then they were told to do so and if they don't it's on them? Are instructors encouraged to refuse to certify divers whom they believe are unable to approach diving with the necessary independently responsible attitude?

What about instructors for subsequent classes? If someone is certified by someone else they may not have had the caliber of training you'd want as an instructor - are you as instructor for those classes encouraged to just refuse to teach/dive with a student if you feel like they're not competent enough, including on the subject of being a confident independent diver?

 

[Silverback9]

This reminds me of a question that came up when I was discussing this with my SO - I've never done any dive training so I have no idea what is included in OW training, never mind instructor training, but I've noticed a lot of people discussing this incident making the argument that Mills is significantly at fault because she should have known better because based on her OW training she should have refused to do the dive due to various factors (no weight check, etc.) because certified divers are ultimately responsible for themselves, or something along those lines. But being able to be independent in that way and stand up to an instructor and not just go along because of course the instructor must know best is itself a skill (and also from my experience seems a bit of a personalty type thing also - I've met some people who I think it would be exceptionally difficult to teach to have that attitude.)

So is that skill addressed explicitly in OW training? Or are divers just told "yes, you should do this, this is good" and then they were told to do so and if they don't it's on them? Are instructors encouraged to refuse to certify divers whom they believe are unable to approach diving with the necessary independently responsible attitude?

What about instructors for subsequent classes? If someone is certified by someone else they may not have had the caliber of training you'd want as an instructor - are you as instructor for those classes encouraged to just refuse to teach/dive with a student if you feel like they're not competent enough, including on the subject of being a confident independent diver?

Linnea Mills had a total of 5 dives under her belt when she showed up at Gull Dives in Montana on Oct. 19, 2020. Her four OW training dives had been in warm water in 2017, her one other dive on the Great Barrier Reef in 2018, was also warm water. None of the five dives had been in wetsuits. At the time of her death, she was 18. She had 1 dive with "Instructor" Debbie Snow in Lake McDonald on Oct. 25, 2020. She wore TWO 7mm wetsuits for the first of her AOW dives to stay warm, which meant, she could hardly move. She had no predive instruction, no post dive instruction. After the dive, Linnea was told to buy a dry suit by Ms. Snow before the next dive on Nov. 1, 2020. She was put in touch with a Kendra Potter, from whom Linnea could purchase a used Dry suit. She bought the dry suit on or about Oct. 29, 2020. She knew nothing of dry suit use and was not given instruction, nor the opportunity to try the dry suit, in a confined water setting (swimming pool) before the open water dive of Nov. 1, 2020, as is required by PADI Standards. When the group got to McDonald Lake on the morning of Nov. 1, 2020, it was discovered that Linnea did not have an inflator hose for the dry suit. She was instructed that it would be fine, and Debbie Snow loaded Linnea down with 44 pounds of NON-DITCHABLE lead, and then buddied her up with another student, Robert Gentry.

This 18-year-old girl, with a total of 6 dives, trusted her instructor to teach her properly and follow the PADI Standards. She died because of that trust.

When Snow discovered that Linnea, had no inflator hose for the dry suit, the dive for Linnea should have been cancelled.

How many 18 year-olds do you know with 6 dives, would know enough to even ask questions, much less confront an Instructor?

This is the problem; people go to Instructors to learn a skill. They place their trust in that person to train them safely. They do not have the experience to know, what they don't know. There is no questioning, or unsureness, because they don't know. As experienced divers, we can sit back and pontificate about how this 18 year-old, wet behind the ears, diver with a total of 6 dives, 5 of which were 2-3 years prior, in warm water, SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER, so she is at fault. I won't...

So, to answer the question, No. Even if Linnea had the personality at 18 to push back and question the "Instructor". She did not have the experience to see and understand the danger she was in the moment she walked into Gull Dive on Oct. 19, 2020.

 

[Alaskan Scuba Dude]

I've never done any dive training so I have no idea what is included in OW training, never mind instructor training, but I've noticed a lot of people discussing this incident making the argument that Mills is significantly at fault because she should have known better because based on her OW training she should have refused to do the dive due to various factors (no weight check, etc.) because certified divers are ultimately responsible for themselves, or something along those lines.

I think your assumption has been summarized in regard to the fact that you have no idea what you're are talking about. Most divers are gullible and have no character traits worth defining. Let alone challenging an egocentric instructor or dive shop owner. Like most people, they will toe the line or face expulsion from the tribe.

 

[PirateFoxy]

I think your assumption has been summarized in regard to the fact that you have no idea what you're are talking about. Most divers are gullible and have no character traits worth defining. Let alone challenging an egocentric instructor or dive shop owner. Like most people, they will toe the line or face expulsion from the tribe.

What assumption? I didn't assume anything, I asked questions about what is taught/evaluated based on claims I have seen OTHER PEOPLE making about this incident.

The reason I was asking is, in fact, that it seems completely unreasonable to use "well, she should have been responsible for herself" as an excuse that absolves anyone involved (including PADI) from responsibility if "is this individual able to exert the necessary independence?" is not actually any part of the evaluation process for certification, and no skills in that area are taught as part of the training.

As Silverback said, I don't see how expecting someone, but especially an 18 year old very new diver, to be able to have the necessary attitude/outlook/independence that would be required is at all realistic. I'm not even actually sure you COULD teach someone that skillset effectively in the context of an OW class - but if there's no effort to do so and no evaluation of that ability, then that would seem a failure in either the process/standards for certification, or the expectations placed on certified newer divers.

The way things are now, it rather sounds like for the most part there's a lot of "well, if we just declare that certified divers have to be able to do this, then we can expect that they'll be able to do that" going on in the whole industry, and just declaring people can do a thing does not actually make them able to do the thing. So that's a very irresponsible attitude. And since the vast majority of us are socialized to respect/trust/go along with teachers/instructors, if diving keeps being marketed as a fun and accessible thing for the masses without addressing that reality, it seems like people will just keep getting killed when they trust the wrong person.

So just to be completely clear: I think blaming Mills for trusting an instructor as she did is completely ridiculous, and the people who are trying to do so are behaving very poorly, to put it diplomatically. (I'm not sure what kind of language will get me in trouble with the mods.) I'm just trying to understand better how much effort is actually put into creating independent divers, since it doesn't seem to be something that gets mentioned much when people are talking about what skills are taught in OW and that sort of thing.

 

[PirateFoxy]

Linnea Mills had a total of 5 dives under her belt when she showed up at Gull Dives in Montana on Oct. 19, 2020. Her four OW training dives had been in warm water in 2017, her one other dive on the Great Barrier Reef in 2018, was also warm water. None of the five dives had been in wetsuits. At the time of her death, she was 18. She had 1 dive with "Instructor" Debbie Snow in Lake McDonald on Oct. 25, 2020. She wore TWO 7mm wetsuits for the first of her AOW dives to stay warm, which meant, she could hardly move. She had no predive instruction, no post dive instruction. After the dive, Linnea was told to buy a dry suit by Ms. Snow before the next dive on Nov. 1, 2020. She was put in touch with a Kendra Potter, from whom Linnea could purchase a used Dry suit. She bought the dry suit on or about Oct. 29, 2020. She knew nothing of dry suit use and was not given instruction, nor the opportunity to try the dry suit, in a confined water setting (swimming pool) before the open water dive of Nov. 1, 2020, as is required by PADI Standards. When the group got to McDonald Lake on the morning of Nov. 1, 2020, it was discovered that Linnea did not have an inflator hose for the dry suit. She was instructed that it would be fine, and Debbie Snow loaded Linnea down with 44 pounds of NON-DITCHABLE lead, and then buddied her up with another student, Robert Gentry.

Every time I see the events written out I'm shocked again by how many opportunities the instructor had to put a stop to things. Has anyone explained why criminal charges were not filed? I can't remember reading anything about it, but I may have forgotten.

 

[Alaskan Scuba Dude]

As Silverback said, I don't see how expecting someone, but especially an 18 year old very new diver, to be able to have the necessary attitude/outlook/independence that would be required is at all realistic. I'm not even actually sure you COULD teach someone that skillset effectively in the context of an OW class - but if there's no effort to do so and no evaluation of that ability, then that would seem a failure in either the process/standards for certification, or the expectations placed on certified newer divers.

Stop paraphrasing what someone else said. The unlikely victim would have read her manual before the course began and should have been inclined to realize something was wrong. I'm sure even the others felt the same, but sometimes enthusiasm gets in the way. Desperate dive shops tend to hire misfits with no resume whatsoever to train novice divers. I would also like to know what credentials this negligent Instructor has that is worth mentioning in her defense.

 

[MrVegas]

Deleted.

 

[MrVegas]

When the group got to McDonald Lake on the morning of Nov. 1, 2020, it was discovered that Linnea did not have an inflator hose for the dry suit. She was instructed that it would be fine, and Debbie Snow loaded Linnea down with 44 pounds of NON-DITCHABLE lead, and then buddied her up with another student, Robert Gentry.

Keep in mind that the 2nd Amended Complaint alleges that Dudden (a non-party), not Snow, put 24 lbs in the zippered pockets of the BC. The complaint alleges that an additional 20 lbs of weight were found in the dry suit pockets after transportation to the crime lab, but I could not find any place that stated how those weights got there. Defendant Snow denies in her answer the allegations of the complaint paragraph indicating that she advised the deceased she could enter the water without the drysuit hose. The 2nd Amended Complaint also explicitly states that "Seth Liston and Nathan Dudden were paired as a buddy team, while Linnea and Bob were not." The answer denies the allegations of that paragraph. Perhaps there is a dispute as to whether they were supposed to be a buddy team and whether the dive was intended to be an instructional dive. I honestly don't know.

Also, there is much discussion of weather in this thread. According to Weather Underground historical data, the temperature at 4:55pm in Kalispell, MT (the closest I could find to Lake McDonald) on November 1, 2020 was about 50F and the weather was fair.

Nothing in this post is intended to be critical -- just to point out that some of factual allegations in the complaint are likely to be disputed and that there is a lot of extrapolation going on in the discussion. Much of the discovery (video, depositions, medical records, etc.) will never be known to the public unless the case goes to trial.

 

[goldfishtornado]

So just to be completely clear: I think blaming Mills for trusting an instructor as she did is completely ridiculous, and the people who are trying to do so are behaving very poorly, to put it diplomatically. (I'm not sure what kind of language will get me in trouble with the mods.) I'm just trying to understand better how much effort is actually put into creating independent divers, since it doesn't seem to be something that gets mentioned much when people are talking about what skills are taught in OW and that sort of thing.

I don't disagree, but I think part of the dissonance is that there are several tightly connected but distinct questions with respect to this thread. One is how the law does or should, and the court/jury will, apportion the potential joint and several liability in this case. The second is a discussion of moral, ethical, and professional responsibility. While the third is the question of what are realistic/best/stated/current practices or standards. On top of that you have all the permutations from all the parties involved, the students, instructors, dive shop, agencies, etc.

To answer your earlier question, I took "Open Water" and "'Advanced' Open Water" with what would probably have been the same PADI materials the victim would have used. I'm fairly certain the Open Water materials do imply that you are expected to dive independently if you are issued a certification, but the way the book is laid out it would take a while to find a specific quote. The 'Advanced' book goes much more into independently planning and executing your dives. As a matter of law it will probably be hard to show a material defect with the PADI approved materials, but if the question gets in front of a jury I wouldn't necessarily expect that to particularly matter since the details of this case are truly horrific. Because of that, there are a few comments up thread expecting PADI to settle with a NDA in place.

@Alaskan_Scuba_Dude also made the important point that the victim likely wouldn't have read the 'Advanced' manual before the course. If I recall correctly the complaint alleges that she was not given the manual until right before class. I would expect that officially the instructor is supposed to make sure you have read the manual, and evaluate your understanding, before any in water actives. My instructor, when I took my training, did. I think the allegation is that this did not happen in this case.

As far as what happens in practice, the current state of the industry is that the quality of training is highly idiosyncratically dependent on the quality of your instructor. I'm sure I heard my instructor give the common quote "Anyone may call the dive, at any time, for any reason." More than once in each course. It seems very much possible, given what I have heard about others experiences, that less scrupulous instructors or shops could be more interested in completion rates and selling additional courses. I do think that my current self would probably have called the dive in the circumstances described in the case, but I don't think my 18 year old self necessarily would have had the life experience or disposition to do the same.

 

[Edward3c]

So are you saying for instance- BSAC would allow you to put Advanced students into open water without having completed the pre-requisite elearning materials and exams?

that would be a MAJOR standards violation. It would be with PADI. I don’t think the BSAC standards would allow that either. I think there is a major difference between taking a university class and strapping on life support equipment in a high altitude, cold water deep dive…. Or maybe your academic environment is tougher than most….

For our new Advanced Ocean Diver course

Open-water modules
Given the increasing complexity of skills and the often limited experience of the students at this stage, instructors should not rely on the students to remember every exercise that they are going to do from the lesson briefing. Demonstrating each exercise then asking the students to mimic it will ensure that the students understand what is expected of them at all times.

and

It is recommended that modules are delivered in the order below but instructors may alter the sequence of delivery of the skills as described in the notes for each module to suit local conditions or an individual student’s needs

Because a BSAC instructor is required to demonstrate all skills for a student to see how they are done, its not mandatory to follow the course sequence as published. In reality, its rare to deviate.

To answer your question, yes a student could complete all the practical parts of the AOD course before sitting the exam. The qualification would only be awarded when all lessons (SMB, DSMB, navigation and 25m plus 30m dives) are successfully completed, plus an 80% pass on the written exam.