Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[pauldw]

That isn't official training documentation. I'm not saying its incorrect, but it is lacking references for the basis of its content.

I would like to have an Altitude Diving manual. But of course, there isn’t one.

 

[Bob DBF]

I would like to have an Altitude Diving manual. But of course, there isn’t one.

Isnt it just a chapter in the AOW manual?

 

[boulderjohn]

Isnt it just a chapter in the AOW manual?

Yes, and that is what I quoted above.

 

[cerich]

Yes, and that is what I quoted above.

Manual isn't standards

 

[Omisson]

I’ve had many university students turn up for lessons not having read the materials. Their excuse is they’re so busy reading for their education they haven’t time, besides you’re the instructor you will teach me.

So are you saying for instance- BSAC would allow you to put Advanced students into open water without having completed the pre-requisite elearning materials and exams?

that would be a MAJOR standards violation. It would be with PADI. I don’t think the BSAC standards would allow that either. I think there is a major difference between taking a university class and strapping on life support equipment in a high altitude, cold water deep dive…. Or maybe your academic environment is tougher than most….

 

[pauldw]

Isnt it just a chapter in the AOW manuaI

Guess I expected more from my Altitude Diver course a few years ago than to just go back to my early 1980’s AOW manual for its three pages on altitude.

 

[cerich]

I am sorry to say that because I did not have the actual course content in front of me, I made the mistake, one I should have known better than to have made after so many years, to assume what you wrote was true. I could not remember that exactly, so I had to wait until finally had a chance to check. You are wrong. You only have to wait 6 hours (the full washout of the PADI tables) if you do not use the method described above--taking two pressure groups for every 1,000 feet of altitude gain. There is no standard requiring 6 hours after arriving at the site for the AOW altitude dive.

Since everyone in this sad story was at the same altitude long before the dive, there was no need to wait a single minute.

From the manual:

Arriving at Altitude. When you arrive at an altitude dive site, you have effectively "surfaced" from the greater pressure at sea level, and your body has a higher nitrogen level than the surrounding atmosphere. The higher standard level must be taken into account when planning your altitude dive.​

​

The simplest method is to remain at the dive site altitude for a six hour or longer "surface interval" to permit your body nitrogen to equilibrate with the surrounding pressure. You may then take your dive without having to account for for excess nitrogen from sea level.​

​

If you want to dive in less than six hours, however, you will have to account for the nitrogen by determining a pressure group letter for use on the RDP table or wheel. [It then goes on the describe the process already mentioned above.]​

​

Later on, it says that if you have spent more than 6 hours at a higher altitude and then do a dive at an even higher altitude, you have to calculate as if you were coming from sea level, something that makes no sense to me, but, hey, that's what it says. It doesn't matter in this case, though, because prior to arriving at the dive site, the divers had been at a higher altitude in Missoula, so they were fully equalized and had no requirement to wait any time whatsoever.

Summary:

• There is no standard requiring divers to wait 6 hours before diving after arriving at a site. It is a suggestion of one way to be sure you have achieved equilibrium with the nitrogen at that altitude.
• The divers were coming from Missoula, which has a higher altitude than the dive site, and they thus had no need to wait for nitrogen levels to reach equilibrium. This meets both suggested methods of ensuring equalization.

OK.. Again, you like leaving stuff out, so I checked
PADI has something called "2022 PADI Instructor Manual"

On page 87 of said manual, for the advanced open water course at the very top under "CONSIDERATIONS" it states the following

"At altitudes between 2400-3000 metres/8000-10,000 feet, wait a minimum of six hours after arrival at altitude before diving." I will grant that I did forget the 8-10,000 ft part, but then again it is relevant in a general sense, and demonstrates the importance of checking standards before conducting a class

Further to the standards that is interesting given the comments in this thread, so many that express that altitude diving is just ignored in classes unless an actual altitude specialty class. Yet paragraph 1...
John you posted about two sites where thousands of cert dives were done with nobody taking it into consideration. Can you postulate why so many instructors don't care?

These are the AOW standards for altitude
1. Determine the no decompression limits for the depth at the altitude at which the dive will take place using a dive computer that has altitude capability or using the Recreational Dive Planner and the Theoretical Depth at Altitude Table.
2. Descend using a reference line or sloping bottom.
3. Compare computer depth readings with another diver’s computer (or depth gauge) and record the differences (if any) on a slate or wet book.
4. Ascend no faster than 9 metres/30 feet per minute, using a dive computer (or depth gauge and timing device).
5. Ascend using a reference line or sloping bottom.
6. Make a safety stop for at least a three minutes at a theoretical depth of 5 metres/15 feet, or as guided by dive computer.

 

[cerich]

So you are saying BSAC allows you to put Advanced students into open water without having completed the pre-requisite elearning materials and exams?

that sounds like a MAJOR standards violation. It would be with PADI. Didn’t realize the BSAC standards were so poor.

he said they showed up, didn't say he let them dive in open water.

 

[Omisson]

he said they showed up, didn't say he let them dive in open water.

Thanks for making my point….

 

[Silverback9]

I don't think she knew them at the level required. The IE process doesn't test every single standard. I admit that some of my responses are not 100% clear as i don't review them sufficiently before posting. Rainbow Reef is a well regarded IDC center from what I've seen. I'm referring more to the teaching altitude in winter. There is a huge difference in those conditions than even the Puget Sound in winter.

It was senseless. I am a certified Ice Diver and worked with students during subsequent Ice Diving classes. The weather was -5 degrees with a -15 windchill. That is insane for an AOW class without setting up proper areas to get out of the wind at least. no one knew what the hell they were doing. I would state that this Instructor was NOT capable of teaching AOW in warm water and 80-degree air temps. Everything in the reports and lawsuit scream GROSS NEGLIGENCE. The whole thing makes me physically ill.