Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Omisson]

Keep in mind that the 2nd Amended Complaint alleges that Dudden (a non-party), not Snow, put 24 lbs in the zippered pockets of the BC. The complaint alleges that an additional 20 lbs of weight were found in the dry suit pockets after transportation to the crime lab, but I could not find any place that stated how those weights got there. Defendant Snow denies in her answer the allegations of the complaint paragraph indicating that she advised the deceased she could enter the water without the drysuit hose. The 2nd Amended Complaint also explicitly states that "Seth Liston and Nathan Dudden were paired as a buddy team, while Linnea and Bob were not." The answer denies the allegations of that paragraph. Perhaps there is a dispute as to whether they were supposed to be a buddy team and whether the dive was intended to be an instructional dive. I honestly don't know.

Also, there is much discussion of weather in this thread. According to Weather Underground historical data, the temperature at 4:55pm in Kalispell, MT (the closest I could find to Lake McDonald) on November 1, 2020 was about 50F and the weather was fair.

Nothing in this post is intended to be critical -- just to point out that some of factual allegations in the complaint are likely to be disputed and that there is a lot of extrapolation going on in the discussion. Much of the discovery (video, depositions, medical records, etc.) will never be known to the public unless the case goes to trial.

I think they have an elevation temperature at that location that ranges between 15-25 degrees colder than that station….

 

[Vicko]

How do you know ANYTHING about what the previous instructor in OW taught or didn’t? There has been ZERO evidence about that. Moreover- it is clear that in all the PADI materials there is CLEAR warnings and rules which the diver violated.

Its exactly the sort of unfounded speculation that you assert as fact- that is why 90% of this thread is useless.

If it quacks like a duck..... I don't need a dna test to assume it's a duck.

 

[goldfishtornado]

Please point out that restriction on the C-card. It may be a good recommendation to dive in similar conditions until one gets more experience, however once certified they are limited by their own judgement.

It is more precise to say it's a strong recommendation, and not a restriction of the certification. The language in the 2016 PADI open water diver manual is (pp. 235):

You're[sic] were also trained to dive in conditions as good as, or better than, those in which you trained, within the no stop limits of your dive computer or tables. You can enroll and participate in the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course, Discover Local Diving program and many (but not all) PADI Specialty Diver courses to increase your skills and experience. Ultimately, it is your responsibility to set your limits for each dive based upon your assessment of your skills, comfort level and the dive conditions."

I agree many people continue safely expand their diving without any further formal instruction, and that learning by diving is a way to learn. This might be conditional on the amount of other life experience and quality of instruction.

I think what is so tragic here, is that the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course is advertised as a suitable continuation of the PADI Open Water Diver course, and clearly in this case it was not.

 

[Wookie]

I guess you didn’t bother to read the 24 screen shots of the AOW training material that I posted, huh?

In the elearning she completed there was more than ample warning that a variety of things this instructor was doing was wrong.

No one argues it was an instructor failure…all folks here are saying is that Mills -legally speaking- partially contributed to this tragedy in either ignoring the very clear warnings contained in the elearning- or not taking them seriously. It’s a legal analysis to say she was contributorily negligent - it doesn’t mean she was “at fault”.

BUT to claim she “didn’t have the experience” to understand the danger- no - that’s not a reasonable take. Every lesson in scuba talks about ditchable weight, checking equipment works, and not pushing limits.

I wouldn’t argue what you say is true. But without discovery, we don’t know if Mills read a manual, took the online course, or did any other preparation prior to her dive in either Seeley Lake or Lake Macdonald. Quite frankly, we don’t know anything, including whether she actually signed up for a course, whether she enrolled in e-learning, or got an out-of-date crew pack from someone including Gull dive.

So many facts are unknown about the circumstances leading up to the fatal dive that it’s useless to speculate.

EDIT: as you said 2 posts down.

 

[cerich]

Absolutely correct. The US Attorney would rather pass on a case if they feel there could be any issue getting a plea or a verdict. They want to maintain the illusion of being unbeatable- and with a 97% conviction rate and 98% plea rate… that’s the image they project.

which I believe they would uphold by going after Snow. Adding Gull owners to mix is more complicated. But Snow should have been charged, and should be sitting in fed pen by now

 

[Bob DBF]

I think what is so tragic here, is that the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course is advertised as a suitable continuation of the PADI Open Water Diver course, and clearly in this case it was not.

It could be, if the OW course was taught to standards. I believe, in this case, the diver was trained to depend on their instructor and DM(s) to keep her safe, and the instructor was not up to the task.

 

[cerich]

It could be, if the OW course was taught to standards. I believe, in this case, the diver was trained to depend on their instructor and DM(s) to keep her safe, and the instructor was not up to the task.

disagree in a global sense and also depending on adventure dive chosen. It can be, it can be a exercise is luck or not

 

[Bob DBF]

disagree in a global sense and also depending on adventure dive chosen. It can be, it can be a exercise is luck or not

...as the OW training can be.

 

[Chavodel8en]

Feds vs state. Federal prosecutors often only take cases that they can 100% win, complex neglience case that depends on the jury not seeing scuba as high risk activity, while understanding how overweighting and lack of inflator hose were major issues. With the Snow attorneys likely saying that Gull pressured her to do the class before the end of the diving seasons, while Gull will likely claim that they expected Snow to follow standards. That isn't an easy case. A state prosecutor might take a chance on it, but a Fed is going to pass on it unless they have a hard on for the people involved.

Wouldnt this be a state case? All the applicable criminal laws would be state laws, I believe.

I suppose there probably could be a federal law that could apply here, but honestly, as egregious as this is, this is not the type of case where the feds get involved.

Local authorities are responsible for standard crime and punishment. So really, shouldnt the question be, Why hasnt the county DA (or, barring that, the state AG) done anything on this?

Edit : or does the location (a Nat'l Park) make it federal jurisdiction somehow?

 

[cerich]

...as the OW training can be.

actually I believe that OW courses taught with fidelity to standards are safer than AOW taught to standards if bad choices are made in AOW by the instructor.

Of course that depends on agency, there are RSTC and ISO standards for OW, there are not for AOW. There is no industry standards nor consensus in how an AOW class is structured.