Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[pauldw]

You don't have to be either to use/teach in a drysuit or to dive at high altitude. The altitude of that dive barely makes the definition of high altitude, and there would have been zero change in activities as a result of altitude.

If she was teaching a drysuit or altitude specialty class, the students could not be certified if she were not qualified. When I certify students, I have to select the class for which they are being certified from a pull down list of the classes I am certified to teach. If I am not certified to teach a class, I cannot even submit the certification.

If the student is not taking a drysuit specialty or an altitude specialty, there is no requirement for the instructor to have special teaching status for either.

PADI standards say that anything over 1000' is high altitude. Lake McDonald is over three times that in altitude.

 

[Wookie]

PADI standards say that anything over 1000' is high altitude. Lake McDonald is over three times that in altitude.

But surely that would only apply if it were an altitude specialty? (I don’t know the answer, as I am not altitude nor drysuit certified, but while I have many drysuit dives, I feel that diving in fresh water is for rinsing gear or bathing.)

I think I read somewhere once that OW could be taught at altitude, but that doesn’t generate an altitude specialty card, so diving at altitude is just a side effect of Montana diving.

 

[Wookie]

Question for a moderator: is there any prohibition on uploading documents filed in court in this case? (Second Amended Complaint, Answer, some of the court decisions.) These are publicly available from the clerk of court to anyone that wants to pay 25 cents a page for the documents.

I file court documents in this case all the time.

I don’t think too many are missing. But then, I’m only filing the plaintiffs side, not the defendants.

 

[Edward3c]

no- I’m making the rational assumption a student with a college education pursuing a marine biology degree would actually read, review, and absorb the materials she was tested on in the AOW elearning program she completed BEFORE the dives… and retained some semblance of a recall of the dives she did previously and the training she had the year before.

I’ve had many university students turn up for lessons not having read the materials. Their excuse is they’re so busy reading for their education they haven’t time, besides you’re the instructor you will teach me.

 

[cerich]

not worth the time

 

[cerich]

nope

 

[pauldw]

But surely that would only apply if it were an altitude specialty? (I don’t know the answer, as I am not altitude nor drysuit certified, but while I have many drysuit dives, I feel that diving in fresh water is for rinsing gear or bathing.)

I think I read somewhere once that OW could be taught at altitude, but that doesn’t generate an altitude specialty card, so diving at altitude is just a side effect of Montana diving.

The reason I said that anything over 1000' is considered high altitude by PADI, was not to address any kind of certification matter but just to respond to the statement that "The altitude of that dive barely makes the definition of high altitude, and there would have been zero change in activities as a result of altitude." Because I thought that statement deserved some discussion.

BTW, OW divers in my state--which is not Montana--do all their dives at "high altitude" because the entire state is what PADI would call "high altitude," and the most common spot for OW class dives is a 95 degree thermal crater located at about 5,700'. I don't recall that altitude conversions are even covered in OW class. They are covered in the Altitude Diving specialty. That specialty class is pretty simple, at least it was for me. We talked in the parking lot beforehand about a plastic conversion doohickey I was handed, and then did a couple of checkout dives next to the OW students that were in there.

 

[Sevenrider860]

I don't think she knew them at the level required. The IE process doesn't test every single standard. I admit that some of my responses are not 100% clear as i don't review them sufficiently before posting. Rainbow Reef is a well regarded IDC center from what I've seen. I'm referring more to the teaching altitude in winter. There is a huge difference in those conditions than even the Puget Sound in winter.

Understood. I think part of the training and the stated expectation is that you are trained and enabled to know where to go and how to review standards. The IE exam is open book since it is not expected to memorize standards, but know how to find them.

From what I have read, the instructor broke enough of the basic and rudimentary standards that trying to claim “how was she supposed to know these other standards” will be a pretty heavy lift. Just my opinion of course, no experience or knowledge in this situation or in legal proceedings in general.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Question for a moderator: is there any prohibition on uploading documents filed in court in this case? (Second Amended Complaint, Answer, some of the court decisions.) These are publicly available from the clerk of court to anyone that wants to pay 25 cents a page for the documents.

No prohibition. Thanks for asking!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Understood. I think part of the training and the stated expectation is that you are trained and enabled to know where to go and how to review standards. The IE exam is open book since it is not expected to memorize standards, but know how to find them.

From what I have read, the instructor broke enough of the basic and rudimentary standards that trying to claim “how was she supposed to know these other standards” will be a pretty heavy lift. Just my opinion of course, no experience or knowledge in this situation or in legal proceedings in general.

One of the weaknesses I think of IDCs/IEs is that you really are not taught to teach. I had to learn how to manage student comfort, deal with both cold water and cold temperatures topside. I would never teach in snow conditions, though some local instructors do. It is too much suffering for students and stress/feeling cold/miserable is not conducive to learning/maximum performance.

When I first started teaching at a shop (now out of business, surprise, surprise), students were in wet dry suits. What's a wet dry suit you ask? A dry suit that doesn't keep water out. One time a student had a hard ring in his dry suit, so I gave him my marigolds for his hands. At the end of the dive, the only thing dry were his hands. But I digress. For those in wet gloves, I'd have a big water container where I'd put boiling water in the morning and they'd throw in their gloves/hoods in between dives so they wouldn't suffer so much.

I do think when there are so many factors of teaching at elevation in winter, a bit more than read the standards is sufficient, as you need to put in several standards and practices not covered by standards. This is a perfect storm situation where bad weather, cold temperature, lack of common sense all came together resulting in tragedy.

I wish agencies would have some sort of apprentice period where how to approach teaching various courses is covered, and in order to teach a specialty, you would have to have to teach under supervision your first time out.

Don't think I'm excusing Snow here. She was certainly negligent in how she weighted the student, allowing a student to dive without a dry suit hose, not having an orientation session at a pool, etc.. My gut tells me that she was pushed by the dive center to get the classes done and just couldn't handle it.