Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[cerich]

It’s a crazy industry - aviation with more trouble than diving- and less good solutions…

General aviation is doing better now than has in ages.

Light sport never took off like some wanted, but otherwise from part 23 singles to private jets, they all have long wait lists and new models in pipeline

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

There it is- the last refuge of the losing argument- the ad hominem attack. Thanks for proving the point that all your arguments use irrelevant points to make the misdirection easier to swallow. I am surprised it took that long before you trotted that out.

keep showing why you can’t make a cogent argument- because when in doubt attack the messenger not the message…

So, clown is a complement to you then? You live in a glass house. You shouldn't throw rocks.
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So let's assume the convict is right, that there is no legal basis for PADI being at all liable.

I have a rhetorical quesiton. Would any of us if we were CEOs of an insurance company provide insurance for diving instructors? I sure wouldn't.

Let's assume that the plaintiffs are awarded a significant judgement against Gull Dive Center (whose owners according to the plaintiff's attorney received a large settlement/award from Kia) and Snow. What impact does this have on insurance for dive pros? It will go up, right? Increased insurance, fewer instructors, yes? Basic economics here. So fewer instructors, fewer people becoming instructors at least in the US (I have no idea as to what percentage of new instructors are trained in the US versus the rest of the world). More instructors stop teaching. I'm referring to not this incident but virtually all non-medical related incidents.

So this means less revenue for the agencies, yes?

Wouldn't it have been better for agencies (not just PADI) to tighten up standards, raise instructor/DM training requuirements, lowering ratios, etc.. as an effort to improve dive safety?

If you haven't been to prison, I'm curious as to your opinion? Do you disagree that keeping the status quo will result in more lawsuits that cause insurance rates going up? Do you disagree that these insurance will cause there to be for new instructors and also cause more instructors to stop teaching? Do you disagree that it may have been better for agencies to take a hit of lower volume by improving instructor training/performance standards for both pros/students?

 

[pauldw]

[Was being Omission}

It seems to me that the phrase "everyone in or related to the organization" breaks down like this. "Everyone in" means "everyone in." Everyone in PADI, in other words. Everything after the "or" could only refer to people not in that first category. In other words, it has to refer to people not "in" PADI. So that leaves a couple of possibilities for the latter group, one being that it's talking about every single person in the world who isn't "in," or that it's talking about some subset of that group. In context, especially since the rest of the phrase is talking about people having some kind of relationship to PADI, it's obviously the latter. People associated with PADI in some way, that aren't "in" PADI. There seems to be disagreement on where that dividing line is, whether shops and instructors are on one side or the other. But that doesn't matter for purposes of what I was saying. Which is that regardless of whether PADI is legally responsible for the accident, they should still try to keep in mind how serious their responsibility is. So, that's #1,183. In #1,185 I added that the entire industry should do the same, not just PADI.

 

[Sevenrider860]

PADI has no oversight program that might have prevented this. There is no ongoing inspection of the performance of instructors.

I am curious if the Course evaluation Questionnaire (CEQ) constitutes an oversight program? I know that I have had students receive these. I know an instructor who was contacted by PADI based on the way he had a student answer one.

I remember seeing one for a Tec 45 course and the way the questions were asked, it was based on the standards requirements for the course.

 

[Sevenrider860]

This is an assumption that Snow knew the standards. You are making gross assumptions about Mills training and what she was taught.

The IDC has a section on Systems, Standards, and Procedures. The IE has a written exam on Systems, Standards, and Procedures. PADI likely has the IDC course completion documentation provided by Rainbow Reef and the Exam results from the IE.

I have zero experience in legal proceedings and have never sat as a juror. So I may be completely off base, but my thought is that it would be stretch to prove that Snow was not trained on PADI Standards and therefore did not know them.

 

[Silverback9]

• They said that the instructor (Snow) was new to instruction and had received all her instructor training in Key Largo. Unless I missed it, it is not clear when she got drysuit training or if she had drysuit instructor qualifications.

According to the lawsuit filing, Snow was neither a dry suit Instructor, nor a High-Altitude dive Instructor. (Glacier lake is at 9,700 feet ASW.)

 

[rsingler]

If anyone is “worked up” it’s you- your “righteous indignation” is based on a set of unrealistic expectations, using fake facts, that you have to keep backtracking on- and emotion to inject whataboutisms into an objectively explainable tragedy that is squarely the instructor’s fault- but indicative of no systemic issue. There will always be bad guys. Always people willing to cut corners. The question is - what can any agency do to ensure better quality instructors and then maintain those instructor’s “frosty-ness”.

If we skip the prelude, and go straight to "There will always be bad guys..." and "what can any agency do[?]", I respond with

PADI list of expelled instructors and expelled dive centers...

Expelled PADI Professionals | PADI

List of former PADI Instructors and Divemasters who have been expelled from PADI within the last few years

www.padi.com

Expelled Dive Centers and Resorts | PADI

Expelled Dive Centers and ResortsThe following list identifies former PADI Dive Centers and Resorts that have been expelled from the PADI organization within the last few years. These dive operations are no longer members of the PADI Retail and Resort Association, can’t conduct PADI courses nor...

www.padi.com

I see neither Snow nor Gull on the list.

But "due process", you reply!
Innocent until proven guilty!

Fair enough.
How about PADI list of temporarily suspended instructors or dive centers?

Suspended PADI Members | PADI

Suspended PADI MembersThe following lists PADI Dive Centers, Resorts and individual members suspended from the organization for a specified time (temporary status). During suspension, individual members, dive centers, or resorts can’t represent themselves as PADI Members or conduct PADI courses...

www.padi.com

I see neither Snow nor Gull on the list.

"What can any agency do!!??"
Indeed!
I'm not a "PADI BAD" Instructor. They have reasonable standards. I got good training, though my IE was a joke.
I'm an "ashamed of PADI" Instructor.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The IDC has a section on Systems, Standards, and Procedures. The IE has a written exam on Systems, Standards, and Procedures. PADI likely has the IDC course completion documentation provided by Rainbow Reef and the Exam results from the IE.

I have zero experience in legal proceedings and have never sat as a juror. So I may be completely off base, but my thought is that it would be stretch to prove that Snow was not trained on PADI Standards and therefore did not know them.

I don't think she knew them at the level required. The IE process doesn't test every single standard. I admit that some of my responses are not 100% clear as i don't review them sufficiently before posting. Rainbow Reef is a well regarded IDC center from what I've seen. I'm referring more to the teaching altitude in winter. There is a huge difference in those conditions than even the Puget Sound in winter.

 

[MrVegas]

Question for a moderator: is there any prohibition on uploading documents filed in court in this case? (Second Amended Complaint, Answer, some of the court decisions.) These are publicly available from the clerk of court to anyone that wants to pay 25 cents a page for the documents.

 

[boulderjohn]

According to the lawsuit filing, Snow was neither a dry suit Instructor, nor a High-Altitude dive Instructor. (Glacier lake is at 9,700 feet ASW.)

You don't have to be either to use/teach in a drysuit or to dive at high altitude. The altitude of that dive barely makes the definition of high altitude, and there would have been zero change in activities as a result of altitude.

If she was teaching a drysuit or altitude specialty class, the students could not be certified if she were not qualified. When I certify students, I have to select the class for which they are being certified from a pull down list of the classes I am certified to teach. If I am not certified to teach a class, I cannot even submit the certification.

If the student is not taking a drysuit specialty or an altitude specialty, there is no requirement for the instructor to have special teaching status for either.