Suggestions for getting my first dive computer

[Chavodel8en]

Maybe Im just cheap. I don't like the idea of buying a computer that meets your needs as a new diver now and replace it if your diving needs/knowledge change. I want to buy one computer that will last me as long as possible - without need for replacement.

 

[packrat12]

To answer Stuartv's question - No I do not know anyone that has sold or replaced their computer purely based on the algorithm model being too conservative or for that matter, too liberal. I do know people that hated features or menus enough to get rid of their computer, but not the algorithm model.

As a result, they have replaced their computer because they did not like something else other than the algorithm - even though I do not know him, Stuartv is a shining example of this with his computers. I also have known people that have replaced them because a newer, or better model came out, even from different manufacturers. I have replaced mine because of a new type of diving (Nitrox) came out.

Originally I bought my daughter a cheap air only system in '11. Replaced it with a much nicer AI Nitrox model in '13. Best path choice I made. Had an inexpensive computer until she needed better. By the time she was ready for the better one, a nice design change had happened and the new design fit what we needed very well. She or her boyfriend are soon to upgrade to my spare Petrel as they are progressing. It would not have made sense to buy a Shearwater Predator when she started diving - after all, the Perdix is out now.....

Chavodel8en - This is not saying anyone cannot understand algorithms etc. This is a simple comment that it takes years for a normal beginning diver to develop into what they want to be as a diver. Unless someone has a plan from zero to whatever, most of their initial gear purchases will be changed out by the time they get to whatever. In the technical gear purchases I have made (and had already dove for nearly 30 years by that point so I know gear well), I have replaced ALL of it, with the exceptions of my booties which I have had for about 20 of those years..... but I have purchased 2 different sets, however, but did not like them as much and still use my original... Why did this happen? Because I did not know what I truly wanted to do with the Technical side and what I though I needed is different from what I did need. As I have developed, my needs have changed also to fit what I am doing. Gear should not be purchased purely for what I hope to be doing, but rather as a tool for what I am doing.

As with most things, people can have individual preferences to what is most important to them. From my experience with divers, the Menu and Display are the most important. I would bet towards the end is algorithm for almost all divers. I doubt most can even tell you what algorithm is on their computer. Most also are not interested in pushing NDLs to the max anyway.

There will always be a subset of divers that believe that if their computer is not the most liberal, they have a bad computer that is cheating them out of bottom time. For those that push NDL, this may indeed be the case. But for many if not most recreational divers, any algorithm with work fine for them. The features of the computer will be much more important. Try getting the 'best' liberal computer that has a lousy menu or display. See how long that will last with you.....

 

[stuartv]

Try getting the 'best' liberal computer that has a lousy menu or display. See how long that will last with you.....

To quote Lazarus Long, "it's better to be a dead lion than a live mouse. Better still to be a live lion."

In other words, I'll stick to a good liberal computer that has a good menu and good display, thanks. That goes along with what I said twice already, "as long it meets your other needs and desires." Trying to make it sound like you have to choose between liberal and good menu and display is just wrong. You CAN have it all.

If I had not decided to go into tech, I would still be using my first computer as my primary on all dives. Why? Because it has a display and menus that are I find to be just fine for recreational diving. And it has nitrox. What other features, besides nitrox support, do you need for recreational diving?

A liberal computer that is easy to read, easy to navigate the menus, supports nitrox, and can be adjusted to be more conservative. What practical reason is there to ever buy anything else (for recreational diving)? The only reasons I can think are if someone can't afford it (the mythical liberal computer with a good display and menus) or if they know they are interested in tech. Then, I would not hesitate to recommend that they consider the Perdix AI (even if they don't buy a transmitter). It's a totally liberal computer (with the ability to set it more conservative), has a great display, and very easy-to-use menus. Otherwise, you can get a good rec computer for way less money. You can even get a good rec computer with wireless AI for way less money than just a Perdix AI.

 

[scubadada]

Some of us believe divers should make informed decisions based on all information, some do not

 

[KenGordon]

Some of us believe divers should make informed decisions based on all information, some do not

You are fooling yourself if you, let alone a new diver, are making decisions based on all the information.

A new diver has to learn quite a lot of stuff. Maybe they should read up? To read and understand a book like Deco for Divers will take as long as the entire academic part of their course, and probably most of the practical part. And at the end of that could they decide whether they need a conservative computer or an aggressive computer? How should they do that?

If I started publishing 10 sets of tables, with NDLs on air ranging from 10 to 30 minutes at 30m how could a new diver choose which one to dive?

A key issue is that there is no truth to be had about what is safe deco or non deco. Look back at the deep stops threads. At one point Ross claimed that the two NEDU profiles were both 'way too much deco' as if there were some gold standard. There is no gold standard, on any given day for any given person it is a roll of the dice. On average they will be ok, but without knowing the risk difference between two profiles they cannot judge.

 

[Chavodel8en]

packrat12

I don't think you are taking the perspective of someone who is "economical" - like me.

Yes, one often replaces their gear as one's diving changes. But as much as possible, I and other cheapskates, err economical divers, want their gear to last them forever. Yes, I replaced my stab jacket with a back-inflate bc I didn't like squeeze/fit. However, the reg set I bought soon after OW, I want it to last me forever - no need to change. Similarly, I bought a cheap, basic computer and I want it to last (as much as possible) forever. I don't want to spend another $240 to replace it. Had I bought a conservative computer in ignorance I would be stuck with a computer not optimal to my preferences.

As with most things, people can have individual preferences to what is most important to them. From my experience with divers, the Menu and Display are the most important. I would bet towards the end is algorithm for almost all divers. I doubt most can even tell you what algorithm is on their computer. Most also are not interested in pushing NDLs to the max anyway.
.....

I agree completely with the bolded part. But then you pretty much ignore the statement and say that based on your experience, most divers don't care about NDLs, so all new divers should just ignore them. Most is not all. There are some divers who want to squeeze the most bottom time from their dive. I get to dive a wreck maybe once every 2 years, so yes 35 minutes as opposed to 32 minutes matters to me. Every computer Ive ever looked at I could understand the display. I don't really use any menus -- I just want a computer that tells me basic info. So, all I care about is cost & getting the most dive time in.

There may be new divers similar to me. Nothing wrong with giving them the basic information and letting them decide how much they care about NDLs. If they don't care, no harm, buy based on display or menus. But if they do care, now they can make at least a minimally informed choice.

 

[stuartv]

A key issue is that there is no truth to be had about what is safe deco or non deco.

There seems to be a common understanding that none of the recreational computers are getting people bent with any significant frequency. So, based on what you said, why SHOULDN'T a new diver opt for a liberal computer - if all their other needs and desires are being met?

 

[KeithG]

Lots of good info here (along with some marginal stuff?).

My 2cents: make sure you can read AND understand your computer underwater.

For me this has always meant a large screen (imho wrist watch style is too small) with a main underwater display that shows everything i need to know without pushing any buttons. My goto model of simplicity is the Uwatec Aladin computers (but to be clear, i am not suggesting the op buys one unless they really understand how to swap batteries). Big screen, with every piece of information clearly displayed. There are no alternate underwater displays.

As a rec diver I would not be too worried about the algorithm. They are all safe. BUT: you do need to be aware that some models punish you for "infringements" (suunto!). As long as you behave, you will not be spanked. 3 of the last 4 vacation dive ops I used would have resulted in suunto spankings since the SI was between 30 and 40 minutes for the first 2 dives of the days. The dives were shallow and no where near NDLs so no real issues.

You also need to dive your own computer. Not your buddys and definitely not the DMs. In my vacation world the DM dives much less than the real divers. They are racking up way less bottom time. At CoCoView the DM only does 2 dives a day and gets out early every dive. On Caribbean LOBs there are 3 DMs that split the 5 dives a day and they also get out early. Divi on Bonaire the boat captn & DM splits morning and afternoon diving and they get out early as well. Only your computer knows how long you have been down.

 

[KenGordon]

There seems to be a common understanding that none of the recreational computers are getting people bent with any significant frequency. So, based on what you said, why SHOULDN'T a new diver opt for a liberal computer - if all their other needs and desires are being met?

What is "significant frequency"?
They do not know how to evaluate the various differences in risk. So if they cannot evaluate the significance of a feature how can they consider it?

What I said back in the thread was that the algorithm is unimportant. Since the NDL is unlikely to be the limiting factor the aggressiveness or conservatism of the computer will not matter. So, sure get an aggressive computer, or just a bottom timer, for most new divers that will work exactly the same as a conservative computer most of the time.

The really poor advice is to get people to buy a grands worth of computer when one a fifth of the price will do perfectly well.

 

[Centrals]

Maybe Im just cheap. I don't like the idea of buying a computer that meets your needs as a new diver now and replace it if your diving needs/knowledge change. I want to buy one computer that will last me as long as possible - without need for replacement.

You are NOT cheap but rational and sensible.
I bought my first computer(Aladin Pro Air) back in 1996 and was using it until it expired couple of yrs ago. My second computer(Aladin Pro Nitrox) which I acquired in 1997/8 and is still my primary computer.
I am a certified tecdiver since 1998 and trimix (1999) but never ever own a dedicated tec computer.
I am still a bit puzzle whenever eg. Perdix was suggested to recreational diver!

Hurry up DEEP SIX!!!!