Streamlining Training

[Thalassamania]

I'd be glad to be of any assistance that I might.

 

[seaducer]

So who pays for the card? Things in this world cost $. The speciality courses are cheap enough.If someone thinks the fee for a course/gear/dive trip is too high don't take the course/don't buy the gear/don't take the trip.Just keep on diving with rented gear at the quarry/lake or where ever you can afford to dive.

I guess you missed what I was trying to say, sorry if it was confusing. A Night Diver card has no value. The Night Diver course may have a lot of value, but the card itself does nothing, it gets nothing, it is worth nothing, but it costs an extra $20 or whatever the PIC fees are to get it. Not to mention having a PP photo and all that. This BTW is money the instructor does not ever get, it goes straight to the agency, who already made money selling the materials. I could list all the courses that cost extra to process for PIC fees for cards that mean nothing, and these fees are not optional BTW, but either you get what I am saying or you don't.

As for the OW course having to cost so uch more money, how much longer would it take to teach students how to do their skills while nuetral instead while being overweighted and pinned to the bottom? Thats PPB right there, how long did it take?

I am not talking about running the current courses concurrently, I am talking about teaching the so called "advanced" skills at the basic level. Would it raise the cost of the course? Yeah, it would, but by extending the course an extra 1 or two sessions and adding an aditional weekend of check dives, that does not compute to doubling the cost of the course.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I'd be glad to be of any assistance that I might.

Please feel free to apply the same offer to me as well.

 

[oly5050user]

I guess you missed what I was trying to say, sorry if it was confusing. A Night Diver card has no value. The Night Diver course may have a lot of value, but the card itself does nothing, it gets nothing, it is worth nothing, but it costs an extra $20 or whatever the PIC fees are to get it. Not to mention having a PP photo and all that. This BTW is money the instructor does not ever get, it goes straight to the agency, who already made money selling the materials. I could list all the courses that cost extra to process for PIC fees for cards that mean nothing, and these fees are not optional BTW, but either you get what I am saying or you don't.

So what you are saying is teach the course and NOT certify the person..no card,just the training..Ok I have no problem with that,saves me the effort of getting the student a card..So the person saves a big $20. after spending $200.-$300. on a course.Sorta like graduating from a school and refusing the diploma.

As for the OW course having to cost so uch more money, how much longer would it take to teach students how to do their skills while nuetral instead while being overweighted and pinned to the bottom? Thats PPB right there, how long did it take?

Who teaches students to be overweighted? I don't..Every certified diver I get for a refresher leaves my session using much less lead than when they started.
If standards are followed the student knows how to and demonstrates neutral buoyancy.They also demonstrate that they can CONTROL their buoyancy(neutral/negative/postitive) for the situation.

I am not talking about running the current courses concurrently, I am talking about teaching the so called "advanced" skills at the basic level. Would it raise the cost of the course? Yeah, it would, but by extending the course an extra 1 or two sessions and adding an aditional weekend of check dives, that does not compute to doubling the cost of the course.

It would raise the cost ..add 2 sessions ,lets call it $140. more..add additional weekend of dives , another $239.(includes rentals ) so now an ow course costs $885.+ crewpak ...finish paying access to quarry and accessories we are back up to almost $1,000. for ow certification.People who wish to look at pretty fish on vacation would not go for it.Let those with a more serious interest to dive take con-ed courses to better themselves if they feel they need/want it for the type of diving they wish to participate in.

 

[fire_diver]

Maybe instead, we give the "People who wish to look at pretty fish on vacation" a temporary, expiring card which states they must be accompanied by a DM. If that's all they want to do, thats a solution for them. Let the rest of the "divers" get trained to conduct independant dives.

 

[elan]

It would raise the cost ..add 2 sessions ,lets call it $140. more..add additional weekend of dives , another $239.(includes rentals ) so now an ow course costs $885.+ crewpak ...finish paying access to quarry and accessories we are back up to almost $1,000. for ow certification.People who wish to look at pretty fish on vacation would not go for it.Let those with a more serious interest to dive take con-ed courses to better themselves if they feel they need/want it for the type of diving they wish to participate in.

You get to the 1000 mark easy with PADI OW + AOW And as we all know if you want to "look at a pretty fish" below 60 the Operations will ask for AOW card

 

[diverrex]

You get to the 1000 mark easy with PADI OW + AOW And as we all know if you want to "look at a pretty fish" below 60 the Operations will ask for AOW card

That last part is definitely not accurate, lots of tropical operators have no problem taking OW only divers below 60 feet. I was doing 100 FSW on dive 10 with a shop in Belize. And to this day I (and many others) have nothing but good to say about that op and I'd dive with them again in a minute. A lot depends on the conditions and thank goodness many of the shops know when it's okay to break standards and when it's not. I know some people think the standards should never be broken, but I favor the "thinking it through does it make sense" attitude more than just blindly following rules.

Not to hijack this thread with the above response, but I for one am an advocate of a "diver's permit" cert only good in benign conditions and with a qualified DM/Instructor and only in small groups (6 or less). That approach doesn't really inconvenience the vacation diver since that's mostly what they do anyhow but then not fully trained divers would not be out there on their own. Not that I expect the DM to need to babysit the diver, even a minimally trained diver needs to be somewhat self sufficient but the DM could serve as a mentor to beginning divers until their skills improve. Many of us learned through mentors anyhow, this would just institutionalize the practice more.

 

[DaleC]

Show me anyone who can afford to get certified, buy dive equipment and make dives who isn't "affluent".

Present

You don't need a lot of money to dive, you just need to be able to think for yourself. I just did a couple of dives this weekend with $10 fins, an old $5 oval mask, a $20 horsecollar, ex rental regs and some St 72's with an ABS bacpac. I went everywhere the rich kids did and for the second dive I even got rid of the horsecollar.

I am confounded sometimes by notion that diving and formal education need to be continuously engaged in. That one should either be currently taking a course or considering their next course because "continuing education" is a visible symbol of your commitment to diving".

Diving is a symbol of your commitment to diving. Further formal training should be taken when one bumps up against the boundaries of their current training. The fact that so many people are continually taking courses means to me either that they are way better divers than I or that they are not fully integrating what they learn in one course before moving on to the next.

Having said that I like the idea of seperating a classification of "resort diver" from "independant diver", keeping the current status quo for resort divers and incorporating OW AOW RD with DD PPB and UWNav (using the PADI curicullum as an example) for the independant diver. It makes both camps happy and reasonably safe with no mix up as to what level of training prepares you for what conditions.

I also think the idea of professional dive mentoring (as Trace is offering and Lynne described) is also a great idea that could be expanded on. There are many skills I would like to learn personally that might not be offered as part of a course (or a small part of one) and a private mentor would be a good way to do that. The reverse frog kick being one that still confounds me.

 

[fire_diver]

No Dale, the fact that you can afford to dive, have internet, etc shows you are affluent. Nobody on this board is poor. If you have disposable income you are affluent.

Just becuase some of your equipment is old, or not as expensive as someone elses isn't the point.

I agree with you that no one needs to be continually taking classes, but divers should be making dives to keep up with the skills they need.

 

[acwest]

Having said that I like the idea of seperating a classification of "resort diver" from "independant diver", keeping the current status quo for resort divers and incorporating OW AOW RD with DD PPB and UWNav (using the PADI curicullum as an example) for the independant diver. It makes both camps happy and reasonably safe with no mix up as to what level of training prepares you for what conditions.

As far as I have been able to tell, there IS a certification level which almost exactly describes what we are calling a resort diver. The PADI Scuba Diver certification seems like it is about right. The problem seems to be that nobody is getting this certification. It is possible that it just isn't being marketed properly, or the 12 metre/40 foot depth limit is too restrictive. Considering the requirement to dive with a DM or Instructor, you could argue that the limit is too shallow. ACUC (the agency I train with) has a similar certification with a 15 metre/50 foot limit, I'm not sure if the extra 3 metres would be enough to convince people it is a worthwhile certification to have.
Perhaps we should be putting more effort into pushing this course to people who don't want to go to the expense (time and money) of a full certification...