Streamlining Training

[DCBC]

The following is not meant to be a criticism of any certification agency, rather it does point-out one philosophy that seems to 'work' for the student.

Given the current situation, I like how the World Diving Federation (CMAS) operates their programs. Basically this is broken-up into 3 diver areas:

Resort Diver: A 4 hour program allowing a diver to be guided by a DM (***) and Instructor (clear, shallow, warm water, no current). This does not constitute diver certification.

One Star Diver (*): The entry program which includes rescue skills. It is designed so that the new diver is mentored by a more experienced diver while gaining experience (** diver or higher). It includes 5 OW dives.

Two Star Diver: This program is in more depth and is composed of 20 OW dives. The emphasis is on equipping the diver with the knowledge and skill-sets to dive in a number of different environments (warm/cold water, fresh water/ocean, good/poor visibility, calm water/current, light/dark, NDD/decompression diving, etc.) the result of which is a well-rounded diver with a broad range of experience.

I like this process for a number of reasons as it insures that:
- every certified diver possesses good swimming and in-water abilities and that they are comfortable in the water environment
- every certified diver possesses the ability to rescue his buddy (on the surface/sub-surface)
- it's straight forward, progressive and practical
- it eliminates the need for many specialty courses, as these are included in the ** program.

 

[Diver0001]

I do everything I can with every student to get them to see that local diving is where they really learn to enjoy the sport. That is where they learn to just relax and enjoy the feeling as much as the sights underwater. To work on their skills, to see what they thought didn't exist.

Jim, I share your passion for local diving but I must say that I can completely understand some people not wanting to do that. Like you I'm passionate about preparing my students for local diving and I encourage them to try it. Unlike you (at least the way it sounds), if someone comes to me and wants to become a vacation diver then I will do my best to prepare them for that goal too.

My point being that we, as instuctors, are providing a service. It is not our place to make our students do what we enjoy doing, or to judge them and call them "warm water wusses" if they do not enjoy the same things we do. It's our job to prepare them as well as we can for them to achieve their goals.

There's nothing wrong with promoting local diving but I think we should keep things in perspective.

Usually the local shop unless they get SO LITTLE REPEAT business from the warm water wuss vacation divers that they have to keep their prices high.

Of course.... if you lived in the tropics you would proably see it differently. I'm sure lots of shops in the tropics get repeat visits from satisfied customers.

Also, I'm reading some disrespect of vacation divers here and in several other comments like the one I quoted below that seemingly indicate that by virtue of being vacation divers, they must have been badly trained and/or poor divers. I hope that's not what you're trying to say. I think there is more nuance in it than that.

And we need to get away from the focus on resorts and put it on those spots that will encourage divers to want to get more training as opposed to giving them "just enough to get by" and scare the crap out of themselves or convince them they NEED more for the sake of the bottom line and never dive again. They also will see that it can only beenfit them to buy their own gear for local diving.

The local divers are the heart and backbone of the industry and yet the industry has been doing everything it can to stick a big serrated knife right into the middle of them.

I don't believe that "the industry" is a conscious entity and/or has anything against people who dive locally. The industry is everyone and everything. My LDS is part of the "industry" and it provides me with goods and services I need for my local diving. I certainly don't see my LDS trying to murder me.

Likewise, much of my gear is high quality, well engineered and specifically designed, built and marketed to cold water divers. I certainly don't feel as if there is anything I need for my local diving that does not exist because I don't live in the tropics. Those manufacturers for which I am so grateful are also part of "the industry" and they are serving my needs perfectly.

I do agree with part what I think you're saying, though; which is that local dive shops need local divers in order to survive. But if the local diving is really poor or the LDS doesn't have a good enough business model to bring to the local market then, yes, they're going to struggle and they may fail. That's how a market economy works and I don't believe that blaming "the industry" (whatever that is) for not forcing/convincing more people to dive locally is particularly helpful.

What would appear to be more the case (from what I understand) is that in some places there are simply too many shops and the "pie" they're forced to share/compete for simply isn't big enough to keep them all alive.

R..

 

[fire_diver]

Also, I'm reading some disrespect of vacation divers here and in several other comments like the one I quoted below that seemingly indicate that by virtue of being vacation divers, they must have been badly trained and/or poor divers. I hope that's not what you're trying to say. I think there is more nuance in it than that.

Make sure you aren't confusing diver types. There are plenty of divers who ALSO dive while on vacation. Then there are divers who only dive on vacation.

Talk to the vacation destination dive operators (I have). They typically see the once-a-year diver, who can't assemble thier own gear, and have almost no skill in the water. This is why so many tropical resorts have DM led dives only.

And yes, I DO have a problem with the once-a-year divers. Diving is a perishable skill.

 

[oly5050user]

How so? AOW, at least in PADI land where I am from, is a book with precious little information in it, and a handful of dives. Many, if not most people advise a new diver to take it right away, it makes sense to add those dives into OW, it wouldn't cost that much. Bouyancy better not cost any more, since it is rediculous that people teach new divers how to kneel on the bottom instead of, well, dive The information about ongassing and offgassing in the Nitrox course also should be included in the OW course, since, well, it is sort of important. If it costs money to teach people how to dive, well, it costs money. I know many instructors go over and above the minimum standards but the bad instructors don't have to, giving PADI a bad rap and creating threads like this one

.

To teach a course at that level will take more time.More time = have to charge more $.
AOW is not just a text book.It takes time to conduct the 5 dives for people,should not the instructor be paid? Ow course costs $267. plus $100. for book/dvd.Training dives add another $239.Total is $609. Add in the aow as you say and that is another $189. Teaching about nitrogen on gassing/off gassing IS in the ow course.Add in nitrox,thats another $125. Gives us a grand total of $923.Thats before any additional gear rentals/purchased gear for advance dive.So for a ow course to include all as you say we have a $1,000. ow course to look at the pretty fish.Ain't gonna fly..

Bouyancy is taught properly in ow class in the time given and scope of the course. Kneeling at times is not bad,as long as its not on coral as it gives group control to the class as the instructor works with them, and as long as people get the idea that as a dive goes its best to stay neutral. Most people get it right away well enough to dive,others may want to perfect their skill level to a higher plane by taking a adventure dive or speciality in buoyancy control.It costs to have an instructor take the time to do this,should he not be paid?
You say to include a nitrox course in a ow program. Takes time and effore again,should not the instructor be paid? Not everyone in a ow course wants to dive with nitrox or dive in NJ wrecks.They just want to go on a vacation to see "pretty fish".
As to instructors teaching to minimum standards,how about saying instructors who teach to the correct standards of their agency? An instructor either teaches to his agency standards or does not.No such thing as minimum standards. If the standards as written are met a person can learn to dive properly and safely to an enjoyable level.
Teaching below standards is a problem and teaching above standards is just as big a problem.Either way ,teaching below or above standards,is usually in violation of your agreement with your agency as to what to teach.Want to teach above standards or teach something that is out of the realm of a ow course? Then offer a con ed course that does teach that information/skill once an ow course is finished and charge for it..
Just this weekend I had a ow class with 5 students .Completed all academic and confined water and at the end 2 students expressed a desire to take nitrox class.OK, here is the information, get your reading done.Once the ow dives for the ow class is completed we can do the nitrox class.Sold 2 nitrox classes right there.

By that logic I should not have been able to get a dive light, since I don't have a Night Diver card. Or get on a boat since I don't have a Boat Diver card. I also don't have a Fish ID or an Photographer card. I might need to give back my compass too

A dry suit being used by someone with limited dive skills can cause a big injury if not done properly.For liability reasons a facility should not rent out a dry suit to someone with no experience with one. A light can be used during a day dive or anywhere else.A compass is used during an ow course on ow training dive 3 and 4,did you not have one on your ow dives? Module 5 academics in a ow course covers basic compass use.
Lets not get silly coming up with ridiculous scenarios.

Kidding aside, I was told by a dive shop once the PIC form cost money, like $20 or something in order for PADI to issue a card for completing a course. Get rid of those administration fees and those specialty courses get a little cheaper.

So who pays for the card? Things in this world cost $. The speciality courses are cheap enough.If someone thinks the fee for a course/gear/dive trip is too high don't take the course/don't buy the gear/don't take the trip.Just keep on diving with rented gear at the quarry/lake or where ever you can afford to dive.

 

[DCBC]

As a matter of clarification, it may be expected that more training time will equate to higher cost if the training is to be undertaken through a for-profit organization such as a dive shop. Although some instructors require payment, others don't.

Obviously things like added pool time may cost money. However this too is not always the case when dealing with a diving club or university training program. As an example, my particular training program is twice as long (comprehensive) and half the price of a local dive shop.

It really depends, so a good thing to keep in-mind is that there are no generalizations that are completely accurate when it comes to diver training. It's always wise for the student to closely compare all training programs for expected quality and value before enrolling in a program.

 

[oly5050user]

Make sure you aren't confusing diver types. There are plenty of divers who ALSO dive while on vacation. Then there are divers who only dive on vacation.

Talk to the vacation destination dive operators (I have). They typically see the once-a-year diver, who can't assemble thier own gear, and have almost no skill in the water. This is why so many tropical resorts have DM led dives only.

And yes, I DO have a problem with the once-a-year divers. Diving is a perishable skill.

Many people because of finances or geographic area where they live cannot dive as often as they wish.So they dive on vacation in the islands. So they may become the once a year/vacation time only divers.What is wrong with that? Many come to us before a trip to tune up a bit in the pool.
If they can keep their skills up to a safe and enjoyable level what is the issue here?
The location I presently teach out of is a affluent area. More than 50% of the students we get complete their ow training dives in warm/clear water destinations.Some get to go to locations that most of us can dream about.Locations as Wakatobi/Galapagos/Micronesia/Solomon Islands are dive sites to these people.Stating that they are vacation divers unable to dive unescourted or they cannot put their gear together sounds more like jealousy to me.

 

[fire_diver]

Many people because of finances or geographic area where they live cannot dive as often as they wish.So they dive on vacation in the islands.

The problem is EXACTLY what I said it was. Diving skills are perishable. When you only do it once a year, you forget how to do it properly. I have 4-5 hours of driving EACH WAY to get to my closest dive site. You get no sympathy from me if you are too lazy to make a few dives throughout the year to keep your skills current.

So they may become the once a year/vacation time only divers.What is wrong with that? Many come to us before a trip to tune up a bit in the pool.

Coming in for a tuneup? That's great. Thats a divers who want's to be a good diver, and not a threat to thier own health. This is sadly not the majority.

If they can keep their skills up to a safe and enjoyable level what is the issue here?

You didnt even read my post did you? I said the problem was with divers who WONT KEEP THIER SKILLS UP.

The location I presently teach out of is a affluent area. More than 50% of the students we get complete their ow training dives in warm/clear water destinations.Some get to go to locations that most of us can dream about.Locations as Wakatobi/Galapagos/Micronesia/Solomon Islands are dive sites to these people.Stating that they are vacation divers unable to dive unescourted or they cannot put their gear together sounds more like jealousy to me.

Now se, this is you being a troll and trying to pick a fight. Did I say anything about "affluent" divers? Show me anyone who can afford to get certified, buy dive equipment and make dives who isn't "affluent".

Jealousy? Hardly.

 

[Straegen]

I like the ala cart approach to the specialty courses such as Underwater Photography. The thing I don't like is that advanced skills don't appear in the curriculum soon enough. Real buoyancy understanding/improvement, weighting, gear exposure and maintenance, fin technique, improving SAC rates, etc should be mandatory AOW. Those are the items that differentiate a more experienced diver and allows a diver to extract more from the underwater experience.

 

[Thalassamania]

The following is not meant to be a criticism of any certification agency, rather it does point-out one philosophy that seems to 'work' for the student.

Given the current situation, I like how the World Diving Federation (CMAS) operates their programs. Basically this is broken-up into 3 diver areas:

Resort Diver: A 4 hour program allowing a diver to be guided by a DM (***) and Instructor (clear, shallow, warm water, no current). This does not constitute diver certification.

One Star Diver (*): The entry program which includes rescue skills. It is designed so that the new diver is mentored by a more experienced diver while gaining experience (** diver or higher). It includes 5 OW dives.

Two Star Diver: This program is in more depth and is composed of 20 OW dives. The emphasis is on equipping the diver with the knowledge and skill-sets to dive in a number of different environments (warm/cold water, fresh water/ocean, good/poor visibility, calm water/current, light/dark, NDD/decompression diving, etc.) the result of which is a well-rounded diver with a broad range of experience.

I like this process for a number of reasons as it insures that:
- every certified diver possesses good swimming and in-water abilities and that they are comfortable in the water environment
- every certified diver possesses the ability to rescue his buddy (on the surface/sub-surface)
- it's straight forward, progressive and practical
- it eliminates the need for many specialty courses, as these are included in the ** program.

* = Beginner
** = Competent (Intermediate)
*** = Proficient (Advanced)
****= Expert

Add a module on agency policy and leading dives for certified divers = * Instructor (DM).
Add experience, a module on agency policy and being a teacher = ** Instructor.
Add experience, a module on agency policy and teaching teachers = *** Instructor.

Here's the way I see the skill levels:

Novice: Diving knowledge is minimal and solely 'textbook.' It does not connect decisions with actions and it ignores the context in which the action will be taken. The available suite of skills rigidly adhere to learned rules, other responses are not readily available. The possible use of knowledge for planning is without situational awareness and lacks discretionary judgment. The diver has available only rational decision making tools, nothing is intuitive or holistic. Individual actions are seen, and taken, in isolation with no conception of, or capability to deal with, complexity. Performance is unlikely to be satisfactory unless closely supervised.

Beginner: The diver has developed a working knowledge of key aspects of tasks and appreciates that complex diving situations exist. Since situational awareness is limited, all attributes, aspects and elements tend to be treated separately and given nearly equal importance. Though the diver begins to use the global characteristics of situations that are recognized from limited prior experience, problems are primarily solved by using rote guidelines for action that are based on situational attributes. The diver is starting to make rudimentary attempts to decide on appropriate actions in context, but is limited to applying actions as a series of learned predefined steps, and thus can not be expected to successfully resolve complex situations. Though supervision is needed for the accomplishment of the overall task, straightforward tasks likely to be completed to an acceptable standard and the beginner is able to achieve some steps using his or her own judgment.

Competent: The diver now has a good working knowledge of diving, as well as some background knowledge of diving, and as a result can deal with knowledge in context. Recognition of relevance is now present. Actions are seen, at least partly, in terms of longer-term goals. The diver is able to cope with simple, multiple, simultaneous, and competing inputs. The diver sees actions (at least partially) in terms of longer-term goals. The diver performs best with standardized and routine procedures, but is able to achieve many tasks using his or her own judgment, and can also engage in conscious and deliberate planning. Skills are fit for the purpose intended, though they may lack refinement.

Proficient: The diver posses a depth of understanding of the disciplines that make up diving, as well as those specific to diving. At this level the the diver is able to make a holistic assessment in context, rather than just an analytic one. The diver can deal with complex situations holistically, and decision-making is more confident. Performing to a fully acceptable standard is routine; as is seeing what is most important in a situation. Deviations from the normal pattern are quickly perceived. Decision-making is less labored. Though maxims may still be used for guidance, but there is an understanding that conclusions will (and should) vary according to the situation. The diver sees the overall 'picture' and how individual actions fit within it. The diver is able to take full responsibility for his or her own work (and that of others where and when applicable).

Expert: The diver is fully capable of making correct decisions on an intuitive basis. He or she no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims, possessing an authoritative knowledge of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations. In complex circumstances, the diver moves seamlessly between intuitive and analytical approaches, using analytic approaches solely in completely novel situations or when problems occur. The diver simultaneously sees the overall 'picture' and grasps alternative approaches. The diver is comfortable taking responsibility for going beyond existing standards and creating original interpretations using a vision of what is possible. Excellence is achieved with relative ease.

Let's accept those definitions, "as is" for the moment, you can assign other titles to the levels or just number them so let's not argue about that.

Do you need to be an Expert to follow a DM around in the Caribbean at a reasonable level of risk? No. Do you even need to be Proficient? Or even just Competent? Probably not. I'd say that for DM lead dives like that Novice doesn't quite cut it, but Beginner would clearly do. Novices require a little more supervision (more trained leader, smaller group).

However ... to my way of thinking a Beginner is NOT ready to dive anywhere under any set of conditions with a buddy who is another Beginner. How long does it take to train a Beginner? I'd suggest that it's between 20 and 40 hours with four to six dives. From what I can observe this is about the best that most O/W courses do today. The rare exceptions seem to be concentrated in areas where the diving is especially challanging, NorCal, the PNW and New England/the Maritimes.

So what does it take for a new diver to be ready to dive, under typical local conditions, with a similar buddy? I'd suggest that's more along the lines of Competent, which is more like 60 to 100 hours of training and 10 to 12 dives. This appears to be where GUE is headed with their new class, and is typical of the recreational courses that were run in the early days.

The progression from Competent to Proficient to Expert is, increasingly, a question of both training, independent study, and mentoring ... though the progression can be sped up with properly designed courses.

I aim at Competent as a bare minimum and prefer Proficient as the level of new divers that I train. This takes a minimum of 100 hours and 12 dives with the most capable students and often requires more on the lines of 16 to 18 dives and about 140 hours. This is typical of the recreational courses that were run in the very early days of diving.

I think that it really has more to do with what you actually expect the student to be able to do at the end of the course and I suggest that the overall objective statements that most of the agencies promulgate today are just bumph.

Many people because of finances or geographic area where they live cannot dive as often as they wish.So they dive on vacation in the islands. So they may become the once a year/vacation time only divers.What is wrong with that? Many come to us before a trip to tune up a bit in the pool.

If they can keep their skills up to a safe and enjoyable level what is the issue here?

Specifically, what do you teach them in their entry level course about how to "tune up?"

The location I presently teach out of is a affluent area. More than 50% of the students we get complete their ow training dives in warm/clear water destinations.Some get to go to locations that most of us can dream about.Locations as Wakatobi/Galapagos/Micronesia/Solomon Islands are dive sites to these people. Stating that they are vacation divers unable to dive unescourted or they cannot put their gear together sounds more like jealousy to me.

A lot of vacation divers can't. I saw four of them just yesterday, what supprised me was one had a pair of older Jet Fins with spring straps. But I'm curious: what is that I'm supposed to be jealous of?

 

[DCBC]

Thal, your breakdown seems very similar to that of the CMAS program. One thing I really like about this system is that the focus is on 'international certification.' It's focus is not limited to local conditions: "It is intended that, no matter where in the world a diver receives training, he or she will be able to visit other areas and be accepted as a diver with competence and experience equal to that indicated by the qualification held." This is a heck of an objective, but the courses seem inclusive and training may also be provided by instructors in other areas/conditions to meet the criteria. Later this summer I'll be undertaking a review of their Nitrox, Trimix, CCR & Cave programs for the Technical Committee.