Steel Tank Exterior (can it be redone)

[A. Boyette]

That sounds like a (process wise) a silly exemption. first first i could have painted tha tank 2 years ago and then took it o a dive trip and had it filled at a new shop. That shop knows nothing of the tank history and can say they fear it. there is no identification on a tank that says the tank under the paint is good, so its up to the whim of that shop owners. now we are back to the old if its an AL tank it will not be filled unless that shop did the vis on it. or they question the origin of the vis sticker ect. I hve seen painted tanks that are colored but see through at the same time. Process wise i do not see any complications with those tanks as far as the inspection goes. Tank failure happens with a .060 deep scratch in it. ANY I repeat ANY repaint will cover that up. From the inspectors view that tank can not be properly certified to be in a usable condition once repainted.

Do you actually know how much 0.06 of an inch is? What the hell kind of paint are you using that will cover up a 1.52 millimeter deep gouge????? Why don't body shops use this special paint instead of using bondo first? Wouldn't that save them a lot of labor? LOL I wanna go set my mill for 1.52 millimeters and cut a grove into an aluminum plate and test this special paint you know of.

Just to CMA, I inquired this evening of my buddy who has painted cars for 20 years as to whether any Imron paint on the market would hide a 1.52 millimeter deep gouge in metal and his reply was a very fast and profanity laced version of, "No" with a lot of exclamation at the end. I also asked my buddy who manufactures his own firearm silencers in his machine shop and he knows of no paint that will cover a 1.52 millimeter gouge in metal.

On a more serious note, that exemption is straight from Luxfer themselves, so that's the standard I use when inspecting their cylinder. I don't pretend to be a metallurgist or an engineer, so I leave the recommendations up to the people who know more than I do about building cylinders and I follow their recommendations. If in your "expert" opinion, it's silly, then that's an issue to take up with Luxfer. Perhaps Luxfer might appreciate your expert advice if they have a cylinder factory in Texas and might even offer you a position on their staff. I toured the Luxfer plant in Graham and found all the suits and nerds wearing white lab coats and safety glasses to be pretty knowledgeable, certainly more knowledgeable than me at making a 10-inch round slug into a scuba cylinder, so forgive me if I'm foolish for trusting their advice.

Of course, any shop can refuse to fill any cylinder with the excuse that "they fear it". Their shop~their rules. In fact, I had one guy who argued with me for DAYS because he brought in his pony bottle to fill, he got it in the mail from the retailer the day before, brand new, straight from Catalina, never had air in it before, and it had a fold all the way down the inside wall. His logic was that because it was "brand new" then it couldn't possibly fail a VIP. He complained to everyone but his Congressman. He calmed down after Catalina told him his brand new pony bottle was garbage and replaced it for him for free under their warranty.

For what it's worth, I would trust a dive shop to be reliable on deciding what they will/won't fill based on any reliable set of standards. Just like you say, there's dive shops that won't fill a 6351 cylinder, even if it has a current hydro/VIP, there's dive shops that won't fill any cylinder unless it has THEIR sticker on it, there's shops that won't fill a cylinder with nitrox unless it has an EAN sticker on it, I even had a kid tell me he couldn't put air in my cylinder because I had an EAN sticker on it because "it was against federal law". There's shops that won't fill a cylinder older than '88 no matter if it's steel or aluminum, they all seem to just make it up as they go along. You basically pick a shop and take your chances until they get to know you. There's even a LDS that won't do a VIP unless you let them rebuild your valve at the same time. Of course their excuse is the old "safety factor" thing. "Cylinder valves are the most neglected piece of dive gear" their website says.

There's no way in heck a cylinder valve needs rebuilding every year under normal use. Again, "Their shop~their rules."

 

[NAM001]

Do you actually know how much 0.06 of an inch is? What the hell kind of paint are you using that will cover up a 1.52 millimeter deep gouge????? Why don't body shops use this special paint instead of using bondo first? Wouldn't that save them a lot of labor? LOL I wanna go set my mill for 1.52 millimeters and cut a grove into an aluminum plate and test this special paint you know of.

Just to CMA, I inquired this evening of my buddy who has painted cars for 20 years as to whether any Imron paint on the market would hide a 1.52 millimeter deep gouge in metal and his reply was a very fast and profanity laced version of, "No" with a lot of exclamation at the end. I also asked my buddy who manufactures his own firearm silencers in his machine shop and he knows of no paint that will cover a 1.52 millimeter gouge in metal.

On a more serious note, that exemption is straight from Luxfer themselves, so that's the standard I use when inspecting their cylinder. I don't pretend to be a metallurgist or an engineer, so I leave the recommendations up to the people who know more than I do about building cylinders and I follow their recommendations. If in your "expert" opinion, it's silly, then that's an issue to take up with Luxfer. Perhaps Luxfer might appreciate your expert advice if they have a cylinder factory in Texas and might even offer you a position on their staff. I toured the Luxfer plant in Graham and found all the suits and nerds wearing white lab coats and safety glasses to be pretty knowledgeable, certainly more knowledgeable than me at making a 10-inch round slug into a scuba cylinder, so forgive me if I'm foolish for trusting their advice.

Of course, any shop can refuse to fill any cylinder with the excuse that "they fear it". Their shop~their rules. In fact, I had one guy who argued with me for DAYS because he brought in his pony bottle to fill, he got it in the mail from the retailer the day before, brand new, straight from Catalina, never had air in it before, and it had a fold all the way down the inside wall. His logic was that because it was "brand new" then it couldn't possibly fail a VIP. He complained to everyone but his Congressman. He calmed down after Catalina told him his brand new pony bottle was garbage and replaced it for him for free under their warranty.




For what it's worth, I would trust a dive shop to be reliable on deciding what they will/won't fill based on any reliable set of standards. Just like you say, there's dive shops that won't fill a 6351 cylinder, even if it has a current hydro/VIP, there's dive shops that won't fill any cylinder unless it has THEIR sticker on it, there's shops that won't fill a cylinder with nitrox unless it has an EAN sticker on it, I even had a kid tell me he couldn't put air in my cylinder because I had an EAN sticker on it because "it was against federal law". There's shops that won't fill a cylinder older than '88 no matter if it's steel or aluminum, they all seem to just make it up as they go along. You basically pick a shop and take your chances until they get to know you. There's even a LDS that won't do a VIP unless you let them rebuild your valve at the same time. Of course their excuse is the old "safety factor" thing. "Cylinder valves are the most neglected piece of dive gear" their website says.

There's no way in heck a cylinder valve needs rebuilding every year under normal use. Again, "Their shop~their rules."

Yes I do know,,,, and i dont think you and I are on the same page. you take a gouge and fill it in with body filler and then paint over it. Once you do that, there is not an inspector anywhere that knows what is under the paint. I did not say paint only. I dont think you understood a bit of what i was saying. If I recall right there was discussion of manditory hydro after painting. Yes this is silly from a vis process.because me being a non eng like you are trying to say,,,,,, has no idea if the current hydro was done before of after the painting and whether or not it complies with the manufacturers requirements. Reading before replying could have cleared that up.... or at least reading with out tunnel vision . It looks pretty clear form your post content you do not know what is required for a formal vis. No paint will fill in a gouge or rusted spot. filler has to be used and as such if you get a repainted tank, done properly or not, one must logically ask why the tank was repainted. Body shops that do this have no clue what they are doing it is just another job like painting a bumper to them. I sense that those that do not agree with you in your many opinioins are just making things up. There are so many examples you have cited that you do not agree with and are in fact in the CFR's and hence federal law. They are normally just ignored in most cases, but none the less law. Any shop that does the fill properly must be assured that the tank is in a fillable condition, That is done by hydro date vis date tank markings working presure and physical appearance. That fillable condition normally can not be done on a repainted tank. My agency recommends to have the manufacturer repaint the tank so it is returned with a factory job and has been verified good for use. That is not cost effective, sopeople go to paint shops and get it done. As valves go......They are otmally overlooked because .....After all who can prove a valve was vis'd once the tank has been filled once. There are also those that say scuba does not fall under the CFR"S at all because scuba tanks are not commercial. Each to their own. When I do a formal vis on a tank I use the inspection agencies standards and no one elses. If there is a conflict in the procedures in the cfr vs the manufacturers recommendations the cfr's are trump. Hence I do not accept painted tanks to do vis renewals.


As long as the pot is being stirred Ill ask ,,,, how long is a vis good for. 1 yr may be the wrong answer.

 

[TTPaws]

I even had a kid tell me he couldn't put air in my cylinder because I had an EAN sticker on it because "it was against federal law".

Cape Ann Dive shop in Gloucester MA, wouldn't fill tanks with a NITROX sticker on it and claimed it was a liability issue. Since they didn't dispense NITROX and weren't set up to analyze or record the gas %, they didn't want the hassle. Sucked for me as all four of my steels have a sticker and I always wanted to do more dives.

 

[A. Boyette]

Yes I do know,,,, and i dont think you and I are on the same page. you take a gouge and fill it in with body filler and then paint over it. Once you do that, there is not an inspector anywhere that knows what is under the paint. I did not say paint only. I dont think you understood a bit of what i was saying. If I recall right there was discussion of manditory hydro after painting. Yes this is silly from a vis process.because me being a non eng like you are trying to say,,,,,, has no idea if the current hydro was done before of after the painting and whether or not it complies with the manufacturers requirements. Reading before replying could have cleared that up.... or at least reading with out tunnel vision . It looks pretty clear form your post content you do not know what is required for a formal vis. No paint will fill in a gouge or rusted spot. filler has to be used and as such if you get a repainted tank, done properly or not, one must logically ask why the tank was repainted. Body shops that do this have no clue what they are doing it is just another job like painting a bumper to them. I sense that those that do not agree with you in your many opinioins are just making things up. There are so many examples you have cited that you do not agree with and are in fact in the CFR's and hence federal law. They are normally just ignored in most cases, but none the less law. Any shop that does the fill properly must be assured that the tank is in a fillable condition, That is done by hydro date vis date tank markings working presure and physical appearance. That fillable condition normally can not be done on a repainted tank. My agency recommends to have the manufacturer repaint the tank so it is returned with a factory job and has been verified good for use. That is not cost effective, sopeople go to paint shops and get it done. As valves go......They are otmally overlooked because .....After all who can prove a valve was vis'd once the tank has been filled once. There are also those that say scuba does not fall under the CFR"S at all because scuba tanks are not commercial. Each to their own. When I do a formal vis on a tank I use the inspection agencies standards and no one elses. If there is a conflict in the procedures in the cfr vs the manufacturers recommendations the cfr's are trump. Hence I do not accept painted tanks to do vis renewals.


As long as the pot is being stirred Ill ask ,,,, how long is a vis good for. 1 yr may be the wrong answer.

OK. Maybe we actually agree but I just don't understand what you're saying. Maybe it was the wording you used that caught my attention, as the statement that "re-hydro is mandatory after re-painting" is false. Yes, of course, a gouge can be filled with filler and the cylinder repainted to try to circumvent a VIP. Repaint can also conceal heat damage or electrical arc damage. It's up to you as to whether you accept repainted cylinders for VIP. I do and PSI stands behind my decision.

My practice is that a repainted cylinder that hasn't been re-hydro'd does not "automatically" fail a VIP (assuming it otherwise passes). That doesn't mean I don't give it more careful attention and inspect it closer than I do a not re-painted cylinder. But until I find a condition that disqualifies a cylinder, then it passes VIP. I don't VIP cylinders based on hypothetical conditions that may or may not exist in reality.

"It looks pretty clear form your post content you do not know what is required for a formal vis."......while it is definitely true that I do not know everything there is to know about VIP'ing cylinders, I do know for a fact that a repainted cylinder does not require a re-hydro just because it has been repainted.

Sorry if I "stirred your pot" by misinterpreting your comment. I believe you meant "Any paint can hide filler" rather than "any paint can hide a gouge" and "re-hydro is mandatory ~ some of the time."

Thanks for your input Mr. Sowell. Constantly learning more about cylinders every day.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I’m not going to go a public forum and advocate stripping a cylinder to bare metal, treating rust, sanding, abrading, heating from tools, etc. and tell people “sometimes” you need to get it re-hydroed, and “sometimes” not. Most people wouldn’t know what madates a re-hydro and what does not. The safest advice I can give on a public forum is to get your tank rehydroed if you strip, pick at, abrade, grind, remove rust or rust pits, or sandblast a tank prior to refinishing, or if the tank was baked or heated during any part of the process.
If your tank is already painted and you want to hit it with red scotch bright and spray it bright red with a rattle can knock yourself out. That’s not what I’m talking about.
You can do whatever you want and try and fool any dive shop you want, nobody is stopping you. The dive business is loosely regulated. Personal integrity and honesty are key when it comes to cylinders which have to potential to cause a lot of damage and kill people if not treated properly and respected.

 

[Bob DBF]

I'm not going to go a public forum and advocate stripping a cylinder to bare metal, treating rust, sanding, abrading, heating from tools, etc. and tell people “sometimes” you need to get it re-hydroed, and “sometimes” not.

I've always found that a tank that needs a paint job can wait 'till its next hydro is due for the deed to be done. After doing one, I have a reasonably high threshold of this tank looks like crap before I get around to painting one.


Bob

 

[NAM001]

OK. Maybe we actually agree but I just don't understand what you're saying. Maybe it was the wording you used that caught my attention, as the statement that "re-hydro is mandatory after re-painting" is false. Yes, of course, a gouge can be filled with filler and the cylinder repainted to try to circumvent a VIP. Repaint can also conceal heat damage or electrical arc damage. It's up to you as to whether you accept repainted cylinders for VIP. I do and PSI stands behind my decision.

My practice is that a repainted cylinder that hasn't been re-hydro'd does not "automatically" fail a VIP (assuming it otherwise passes). That doesn't mean I don't give it more careful attention and inspect it closer than I do a not re-painted cylinder. But until I find a condition that disqualifies a cylinder, then it passes VIP. I don't VIP cylinders based on hypothetical conditions that may or may not exist in reality.

"It looks pretty clear form your post content you do not know what is required for a formal vis."......while it is definitely true that I do not know everything there is to know about VIP'ing cylinders, I do know for a fact that a repainted cylinder does not require a re-hydro just because it has been repainted.

Sorry if I "stirred your pot" by misinterpreting your comment. I believe you meant "Any paint can hide filler" rather than "any paint can hide a gouge" and "re-hydro is mandatory ~ some of the time."

Thanks for your input Mr. Sowell. Constantly learning more about cylinders every day.

PM sent

Regards

 

[Compressor]

It's getting to be a confusing thead for those trying to figure out what the heck to do with a small spot of rust.
Yes don't paint it
Yes don't put it in the oven.
Maybe sand the stuff off?
Apply cold zinc to the bare steel?
Ask LDS and hope that you don't get bad advice?
Continue reading this thread?

 

[AfterDark]

Well not for me because I know what works for the tanks I've done. They've passed hydro multiple times since the 1st time I chemical stripped, wire brushed, grit blasted, sanded, cold galvanized then clear coated over them. l have no doubt they'll continue to pass and they look good.

 

[A. Boyette]

Well not for me because I know what works for the tanks I've done. They've passed hydro multiple times since the 1st time I chemical stripped, wire brushed, grit blasted, sanded, cold galvanized then clear coated over them. l have no doubt they'll continue to pass and they look good.

I wouldn't have a problem with someone who has painted their own cylinders. Where I find issue is when someone buys a used cylinder that's been repainted. That new owner doesn't know what the paint hides. JB Weld will plug a hole and can hold to over 5,000 PSI on a hydro. A con man could refinish a cylinder he knows is junk and pass it off and the buyer would never know until one day that JB Weld plug fails and his cylinder explodes.

If someone brought me a re-painted cylinder and told me he bought it that way, I'd probably not inspect it. But the thing about that method of screening cylinders is it only works the first time. When he leaves my shop (disgruntled) and goes to New Bern to get his cylinder VIP'd, he's gonna tell the inspector who questions him that he painted it himself and went by Luxfers re-painting instructions.

Customers lie. Especially when they have a financial interest in the lie.