Sport Chalet Instruction...new rules

[Mike Veitch]

as far as i know SDI doesn't teach table in OW either, but computer diving instead. Their nitrox class definitely has no tables, based on diving with a computer.

I haven't looked at a table in about the last 4800 dives or so....

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Of course you can plan your dive right off of your computer! I teach my students to do it for every dive.

What computer? Padi didn't give me one when I took my course. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I'd rather have a table in my hand than knowledge of a computer in my head. If you aren't going to give a student a computer, then you need to teach them how to do it otherwise.

Many people don't use a table because they are diving with a DM who has it all planned out for them, or they have a friend that either did the math on a table or who has a computer they'll "share." Personally, most of my diving is in springs. No DM. My buddy might have a computer but we plan our dives roughly on a table to make sure we know how long is too long at a maximum depth. Then we both keep an eye on our computers during the dive. If anything were to go wrong, we can pull out our tables and check to see if we are over our NDL or not.

There are many ways to teach, and you don't need a table to teach about nitrogen. You don't need a computer either. But you've got to start with the basics, and that is a table. Like I said before, even though roofs are more useful than floors (they keep you dry, for exmaple, which floors do not do) you have to build the floor first. Any roof you buy that keeps you dry comes with a floor, but if you can't afford to startout with a roof, start out with a floor so atleast you'll have something to build the roof on when you can. The analogy is a little rough, but it's 11pm on Christmas eve and I'm only awake so in an hour or two when my parents are asleep I can sneak outside and wash and vacuum their cars as an extra Christmas surprise.

I think tables should be taught. It takes all of 10 minutes, and it could save your life. I think tables are almost as important as an octo, and I almost got killed once on here when I suggested I was perfectly sane to dive without an octo for only one dive (before I got a new first stage with more LP ports). So I find it surprising that you, Netdoc, are advocating not teaching tables. Sure, I agree, computers are better, but I think tables are very important too. They are part of your life supporte quipment!

 

[Cap335]

This reminds me of Buddy Breathing when PADI dropped it as being required I thought I would keep teaching it anyway. After a little while we dropped it and now teach it in Rescue. The instructor can still get basic deco theary in teaching the eRDP and it might get used more. Most students I have coming into my nitrox classes have to be retaught the dive tables from scratch. About the only people I know using tables and bottom timer/ depth gauge are tech divers and most of these use a laptop or palm to cut the tables they will dive. I'm sure most instructors would still teach an interested student tables after class.

Randy

 

[The Chairman]

Tables are like slide rules. They were great until we got computers!

Tying understanding deco theory to tables is like tying understanding moles and gas theories to operating a slide rule. I had to learn that in high school, just as computers were being introduced. In fact, I remember Mrs. Hymes using many of the same arguments against the calculator back then that are used against the dive computer today. As far as I can tell, they aren't teaching slide rules in the high schools anymore. Progress IS possible.

 

[Mike Veitch]

Progress IS possible.

Hey hey hey!!! :no

stop that!

people will get upset reading such stuff! :mooner:

 

[TSandM]

You guys all know from which point of view I come.

But I think it's fine to assume that most divers are going to use computers, and I think it's tremendously USEFUL to teach them how BEST to use them. I think it's also important to talk about the tables, and demonstrate them, as history. But frankly, few people dive without computers nowadays, and few dive operators tolerate it, and those of us who are adamantly functioning without computers are operating at a different level of understanding than the person taking an OW course.

For the purposes of improving my very early diving, having a better understanding of what my computer could and would do for me would have been better than spending the time doing table problems. All the table stuff did for me was confuse me, when we started doing multi-level, terrain-based diving (see my early threads if you don't believe me!).

On the other hand, that early confusion drove me to do a bunch of reading about decompression and algorithms and sent me on to M-values and the shape of the decompression curve . . . If I hadn't done the tables and gotten confused, I might never have learned as much as I have. Every cloud has a silver lining, I guess.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I agree that progress is possible. Infact, I'll take it a step further and say that without progress, scuba would be a dead sport. Anything that cannot change is quickly left behind to be read about in history books. For example, Latin. One of the reasons the Constutition of the US has lasted is because of section...5 I believe, which allows and gives provisions for amendments. I would hate to dive without my computer! BUT, while I do use a calculator on my math tests, I was first taught how to do the math with a pencil. That was first grade. By fifth grade, I knew the basics and the calculator took out the rote and let me use the principles I knew. Basically, I agree that computers only help and never hurt. What can hurt is the lack of ability to figure out a dive on a table. When a diver is in "first grade," he/she should be working on a table. For all i care, get a computer before your first dive out of OW class. Infact, if you want get a computer to use in class. BUT, I think you should plan a dive on a table, if only for the OW class dives. Dive it with a computer but plan it on a table. By the time a diver is in "fifth grade," a table is not necessary. The diver knows the science behind deco limits and doesn't have to prove it every dive, he can use his computer. But as I said before, learning tables takes minutes, the table themselves cost very little (so a diver could dive even if he/she cannot afford to buy a computer. Some places rent them, but none of the local shops I know of do. If PADI hadn't taught me tables or indeed, if they didn't even offer to sell them, then I wouldn't be able to dive until I'd gotten money to buy a ocmputer and that is something that will keep people without enough money from diving) and I can garuntee that learning something new won't kill you. Why does everyone want to skip learning the basics? In the past, people would jump at the chance to learn and understand multiple ways of doing the same thing.

 

[The Chairman]

According to your analogy, we should be teaching slide rules in the first grade.

That, or the basic OW student should be able to determine M Values for all the different gas compartments and do the CALCULUS that the tables are derived from. Anything less and surely they will die.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Why does everyone want to skip learning the basics? In the past, people would jump at the chance to learn and understand multiple ways of doing the same thing.

The recreational diving elitists don't want new divers to have a choice.
It won't hurt computer sales at all if new divers don't know anything about tables.

Dive instruction at large is a joke and it's getting funnier.

 

[Mike Veitch]

Everyone learns the tables in OW, they then get out of OW and buy a computer..

Unfortunately, so many people have no idea what their computer is telling them. I have seen a TON of divers come to the surface and be in deco. "Can't you see that your computer is telling you something?" "Sure, but i have no idea what..."

"Well, you just locked up your computer for 24-36 hours..."

I have seen this quite often.

What would be a better solution? How about integrating the use of computers into the OW class, you know, a real world scenario, and teaching people how to use them. In other words, simulate a computer going into deco, show the students how to read that and what to do when it happens.

Lets be honest here, the vast majority of divers (non tech) who have decided to take up the sport in a more than once every 4 years trip are going to buy/rent/use a computer. Continuing to train people on tables exclusively and not adding proper computer training is like an ostrich with its head in a hole.

Training people on how to use a computer properly, including how to understand deco etc., is just out and out logical in this day and age. What better time than in OW?

If they also want to learn tables thats great, they can learn those too, keep it in the curriculum or offer it is an ad add on BUT, training people in real world (ie: what the vast majority of people are going to do, dive with a computer) just makes sense. Train the students in what they are going to use so they have that full knowledge when something comes up (computer going into deco..)