Split from: Are you AFRAID to Post?

[Trace Malinowski]

I re-read my post and I don't see it as being combative. There was nothing unfriendly about it at all. The response was definitely defensive, but I didn't write that.

Somehow, I think if I wrote "I like sushi" someone would take exception to it as well. I am not certain, but it seems that my stand against PADI bashing has ruffled some feathers. So be it.

Pete, you didn't ruffle my feathers. I proposed the no PADI bashing for 2010 thread in I2I and I've been trying to approach my views without belittling any specific agency including PADI so I'm on your side.

So, by saying you like sushi are you advocating Japanese fishing practices that are environmentally threatening?

 

[The Chairman]

So, by saying you like sushi are you advocating Japanese fishing practices that are environmentally threatening?

I only eat Thai Sushi...

 

[Walter]

Is this site considered anti-PADI?

If it is, it shouldn't be. There are quite a few more PADI defenders here than those critical of PADI. The vast majority either have no opinion or don't care one way or the other.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

How come SDI/TDI has a good and active presence here and PADI or NAUI don't?

The best presence any agency can have on ScubaBoard are the instructors who have chosen to teach for that agency. In this respect, PADI has some excellent, and very active presence here. Three who come immediately to mind for me, personally, are Boulderjohn, Diver0001 and Peter Guy.

Boulderjohn is one of those people whose posts I notice ... because I have found them to be accurate, informative, and phrased in a way that would make people WANT to hear what he has to say. Respect is earned, he's earned it. PADI couldn't possibly ask for a better presence.

Diver0001 is someone I've known here for years. Back when I had just become an instructor, with a lot of ideals and energy, he was one of a handful of people I would ask to review the material I was creating for my students. His insights were more than helpful ... they often gave me a whole different way of looking at a topic that I hadn't considered before I had read his comments. Any agency would be proud to hold him up as a representative ... and any student would be well-served with the kind of insight he brings to dive instruction.

Peter Guy is new to dive instruction ... but not to diving. He's someone who, by nature, dances to the tune of his own drummer. PADI needs instructors like that ... people who look at every particular and ask "why" ... any agency could benefit from that kind of instructor, because "why" is the most important way to start just about any question involving scuba diving, and an instructor who asks that question will be able to provide a reasoned answer when his students do.

PADI ... like any agency ... is only as good as the instructors who represent it. Sure, there are poor instructors in the organization. But the same can be said for EVERY agency ... even some of the niche agencies whose numbers are small and who purport to a higher standard.

But the agency doesn't teach people how to dive ... instructors do. There are lots of great instructors who frequent this board, and who willingly share insights that most divers will never get from the class curriculum. PADI is well represented by those who I consider the best ... and ScubaBoard would be a much poorer place indeed if they were not here.

You really can't judge the quality of dive instruction by the agency someone is certified through ... you can only judge it through the competence and dedication of the instructors who provide the training.

That's why agency-bashing is such a wasted effort ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

You really can't judge the quality of dive instruction by the agency someone is certified through ... you can only judge it through the competence and dedication of the instructors who provide the training.

That's why agency-bashing is such a wasted effort ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Incredibly well said Bob. The whole post was great, but this last part is just plain poetic. Good job.

 

[The Chairman]

If it is, it shouldn't be.

Well, it is, and you are right: It shouldn't be. But, not for the reasons you stated. It's simply not professional for any instructor to bash agencies other than those you represent. Even then, most agencies have rules about their instructors criticizing them publicly. At least, NAUI and SDI have those caveats, though I can't speak for others.

I have brought this up before, but it's the "If I don't teach/sell/dive it, it must be crap" mentality. A few people who are not associated with a particular agency (or who left when they were reprimanded) seem to have no problem telling us WHAT the agency stands for and then they have the hubris to assign motives as well. Sorry, but I want to hear from the people who have CHOSEN that agency and are still actively instructing for them. I made a choice to not renew my NAUI membership this year, so you won't hear a single criticism about them from me anymore. Heck, I wasn't that critical of them before, but now I will say nothing negative about them. Sure, I have my reasons and a few people at NAUI know them, but I am not going to divulge them here on ScubaBoard. Non-instructors don't have the same onus in my opinion.

Unfortunately, if you can't discern the problem, you can't even hope to try to solve it. If everyone around you is indicating that you bash agencies (except a few), then stop and take stock of what you are doing. Your hate may be blinding you to your bias and intolerance. If several people are saying that it is happening, and you "can't see it", then take this as an indication of a problem.

Today I was reading letters to a journalist in the Orlando Sentinel. In a prior installment, he had mentioned that he was amazed at the racial rhetoric directed towards him at one of these Tea Parties. One of the letters boldly stated that the writer was not a racist, but was very dismayed that the journalist had succumbed to "typical Black thinking". He can deny his bias all he wants, but statements like that belie the reality of the situation.

 

[Slamfire]

The best presence any agency can have on ScubaBoard are the instructors who have chosen to teach for that agency. In this respect, PADI has some excellent, and very active presence here.

I see your point but what I was referring to in my question was to official institutional representation. In other words, why does SDI/TDI have a very active Steve Lewis here and PADI or NAUI have nobody here to officially represent them. I know correlation is not causation, but don't see nearly as much criticism here oriented to SDI/TDI. Again PADI is much more visible and bigger, but I am repeating myself.

I concur with everything else that you said in your post. However I would like add this: Neither of the three examples seem to be your typical instructor as the [-]PADI[/-] mainstream agency model has designed. I may be wrong here, and would appreciate correction if needed, but what I mean is that none of them seem to rely on teaching scuba as their main source of income. None of them seem have their day job at a LDS. They could be owners but then again this would be a departure from the typical instructor norm.

I recently participated in a thread on my local forum, Western Canada, were a newly minted instructor complained about the high portion of sales training in the curriculum and the practical lack of diving skills training. I may be too much of a naive newbie to this whole agency politics game but those news came as a shock to me. I do not expect my flying instructor to have a large portion of his educational training be focused on how to sell me David Clark headsets.

And I have to be clear, this is not just PADI. Last night I was watching an SSI promotional DVD and it clearly said that instructors must be associated to a SSI dive center and that instructor training included how to sell equipment and trips to students. I am having a hard time thinking of another educational industry where instructor training is a de facto sales training.

 

[DCBC]

...It's simply not professional for any instructor to bash agencies other than those you represent. ...I made a choice to not renew my NAUI membership this year, so you won't hear a single criticism about them from me anymore. Heck, I wasn't that critical of them before, but now I will say nothing negative about them.

I think that you are well within your rights to discuss your many years of experience with this or any organization. If you wish to mention why you left NAUI, you should not be criticized for doing so. Your observations are honest and if someone disagrees with them, it's their right to do so.

If I purchase a dry suit and find the material, workmanship and customer service poor and decide to buy a different suit. I've paid for my right to complain. I don't have to currently own one to give me that right. That's a ridiculous notion.

I was a PADI instructor for 17 years. Are you saying that my experiences should never be discussed because I left the organization? It sounds like it and a lot like communism.

We each have different experiences in life. Because they may be different than others it doesn't make them less valid.

When people discuss individuals behind their backs in discussions where the person being talked about isn't present to defend themselves it's hardly honorable. Quite simply if this is done by or with the active participation of people who should know better within the organization, ScubaBoard loses some of the credibility that it has no doubt worked hard over the years to develop.

If people are to be encouraged to post, there opinions should be respected; regardless whether either of us agree with them or not.

 

[The Chairman]

I see your point but what I was referring to in my question was to official institutional representation. In other words, why does SDI/TDI have a very active Steve Lewis here and PADI or NAUI have nobody here to officially represent them. I know correlation is not causation, but don't see nearly as much criticism here oriented to SDI/TDI.

First off: Steve is special. Anyone who has met the man, knows what I am talking about. Any agency would benefit from having his energy, his insight and his humor supporting them in any fashion. It would be hard to clone Steve, but frankly I can't see Steve ever changing allegiances. He and SDI/TDI are made for each other.

As for them not getting much criticism, well they get their share. However, it is ameliorated by them belonging to the Tribe. We are the ScubaBoard Tribe. We protect our own, we support our own and we promote our own. Fortunately, we allow others to join our Tribe, but we have to be careful to not be too cliquish, or even to appear to be too cliquish. For the most part, our inclusiveness has made us the biggest frickin' Scuba Tribe on the planet. Mess with the Tribe, or any part of the Tribe, and you have a fight on your hands.

 

[Slamfire]

I made this post on another thread:

I try to put myself in their [the LDS owner] shoes. It's very easy to see that is not the best business to get rich. The inventory they carry is expensive and does not move off the shelves quickly. No wonder they don't have a wide selection on-site. The point is that the small traditional LDS doesn't work out that well economically for owners nor it does for customers. The business model is being pushed into obsolescence. You have online shops for equipment and freelance instructors for training and maintenance/service. What's left? Gas fills? Specialized fill shops like Fill Express seem to make more economical sense than the small LDS. And then there's the firefighters or even the entrepreneuring freelance instructor setting up fill stations.

The reason why I bring it over here is that mainstream agency instructor training seems to be designed at trying to support this hardly viable business model. And it does not seem to be working too well for the instructors either. If it were, there would not be the need to train them as sales persons. Manufacturers with their protectionist sales policies and their (some allege illegal) price fixing are also trying to keep this aberrant business model artificially alive. If all these anti-free market mechanisms were to be lifted, the model would be forced to change and I believe everyone would be better served. It may not go back to a Scripps-like model that Thal likes, but it could be better than what we currently have.