Split fin haters... please explain:

[mdb]

TN_ Your engineer speaking is a good thing. No problem. We do submit our products to those who have a test procedure that seems legitimate.
Scuba Gear Reports took a number of divers offshore and had them dive with several model fins. The test results are on their website. I have never
met any of the principals. I think this crew is serious and honest and we will continue to submit our products, Drysuits, DPV's etc., for their testing.

Of course we do our own testing and evaluation of our products and others. Independent testing is just one segment.

 

[flots am]

If they were actually being issued to soldiers for military use, you'd know because the military would impose all sorts of manufacturing requirements, contract requirements, etc.

For consumer items that are useable as-is, they're allowed to simply buy them on a credit card.

And you really never know what they're doing with anything they buy. for all anybody knows, they're being used in Physical Therapy for working bad knees and ankles.

flots.

 

[mdb]

But you also advertise on their site, as do several of the others that supply gear for testing.

Also I can't find any description of the methodology of their tests. Yes, they might point out bad points but what I have read as flaws are things that any diver would recognize if they used the gear. Just because someone is an instructor does not qualify them as "gear experts". Again you need divers with different diving goals to determine if the gear fits their needs - cave and wreck divers need to evaluate for silting, photographers/videographers need to evaluate for precise positioning, and reef sightseers need to evaluate for long fast swims/stiff current. Plus you need to throw in something to evaluate fins for shore diving vs fins for boat diving.

If you are going to run a test do it right (this is the engineer in me speaking). Set up the test parameters, provide a detailed rating method and do enough tests with divers of various abilities and interests to give statistically relevant results.

My bet is that most manufacturers would not submit fins for this type/level of testing - since it almost a sure thing that there would be major flaws pointed out for all ot them in one way or another - because there is no such thing out there as a "perfect" fin for all uses.

TN: These tests have been done over and over, the results have been fairly consistent. The paranoia about rigged tests or advertising buy outs are just BS. Having spent very little in the way of advertising, since most of what we see is the best of all-word of mouth, We have always submitted a full size run of our fins to any magazine or organization who was credible. We have always scored high in whatever tests that were run.

 

[jar546]

Common sense tells you that every product can't be #1 that is submitted. If other manufacturers advertise and provided equipment for testing, why aren't they #1? Apollo submitted other equipment that did not fair as well as their fins. If your theory was correct, all submitted equipment would be number 1, right?

Different strokes for different folks. Every fin has a purpose and I still don't understand why people are so adamant to dislike split fins. I mean, really? Just don't use them. Simple.

Small penis syndrome I suspect.

 

[TN Traveler]

TN: These tests have been done over and over, the results have been fairly consistent. The paranoia about rigged tests or advertising buy outs are just BS. Having spent very little in the way of advertising, since most of what we see is the best of all-word of mouth, We have always submitted a full size run of our fins to any magazine or organization who was credible. We have always scored high in whatever tests that were run.

I don't question that your fins score high - they were my fins of choice for a long time. Your latest version of very stiff fins are probably even better than the ones I used. No doubt that Bio Fins are fast and easy on knees - but they often caused me toe/arch cramps which I have never heard mentioned in any test.

In fact my wife still uses her pair of XTs since I have not gotten a pair of Force Fins she feels work as well for the variety of kicks she uses (that may change with her Christmas present) - but she still complains of foot cramps

My problem is the whole fin testing methodology and the fact that I have seen some fins get high scores that made no sense to me. Some (not pointing at Bio Fins) had a very limited "skill set" that they did well but still were rated "tester's choice". Which just makes me question the parameters used for the testing, which were never made clear. What I want is real open and honest testing that spells out the how, what and why of the tests.

If that type of testing ever occurs, I hope you will participate. I would bet there are lots of manufacturers that will not. (In my honest opinion).

As I said, as an engineer all I want to see is the objective criteria used for the tests, the goals of the test and the qualifications of the divers who do the testing in regard to the qualities being tested. If you want to test for ultimate speed then use divers with super strong legs and can absolutely maximize the speed - but don't tell me just because a fin is the fastest, it is the all around best fin for diving.

 

[jar546]

TN, the only way you are going to get the subjectivity out of testing is to not use human subjects and use machines in a controlled environment.

 

[mdb]

TN-

We will always submit a full size run of our fins in all models to those who want to test for whatever variables, we always have.

 

[TN Traveler]

TN, the only way you are going to get the subjectivity out of testing is to not use human subjects and use machines in a controlled environment.

That is one way but I don't know of any machine that could test a variety of kicks and also judge thing like fit or cramping.

I do know that properly designed tests with a sufficient number of testers can be designed so that the results are not biased. If you use a sufficiently diverse group and have enough testers, it is fairly easy to arrive at a statistically resonable conclusion as well as getting feedback on those subjects that are not measurable in absolute terms.

A lot of what most divers really want to know is a combination of both objective results and subjective opinions -- I.e. These fins are fast using a futter kick, don't do back kicks but 30% of the divers had leg/foot cramps.

 

[danvolker]

We are always up for "some real fin testing" a recent example:
TOP STORY / Best Gear of 2011

These guys do not represent anything beyond advertorial... These same SGR guys trotted out the most ridiculous dive knife/dive light of all time a month ago or so, and fortunately, none of the scubaboard readers were of the defective IQ required, for the recommendations of this publication to be credible.

I hope you realize, that your using SGR tests after the dive knife/light fiasco is almost humorous.....
Thanks for making my point for me !!!!

 

[danvolker]

That is my point. I believe that a good many divers dive for fun and recreation and may not have the strength, endurance or desire to push the 'big gear' efficiently.

I've used splits to this point but now own a pair of jets, so I have a decision to make before I take AOW in February.

The cool thing about fins like the DiveR freedive fins, is that they function as if they have many gears....so a person with non-trained, weaker muscles, is fine using a slow kick stroke, with big amplitude....slow like this is still faster than splits, but requires almost no power at all. If the diver wants to increase the turnover a little, speed will go way up.....but they can also change the shape of the kick to more of an oscillating kick, and use different muscles with this, and get higher speed...or frog kick, with a big kick and a very long glide...this uses very little muscle effort.

The ridiculously fast speeds are going to require much stronger legs and core strength, but most divers will not need this often...it's just cool that the fins "can" do this if you need them to..