Spiegel Grove Lesson Learned

[Walter]

Walter... He spent 2000PSI trying to get back to the ship and finding the other divers... no luck... He didn't find any other mooring lines... Plus... his dive briefing was pretty clear.. start your ascent with 1000PSI... He made the right decision.

I respectfully disagree. He used 2000 PSI fighting a strong current. Once he reached the wreck, he could easily hold onto the wreck and move hand over hand to an upline. He would have used little air to find the upline. The concept of starting the ascent with 1000 PSI was designed to allow an air hog to ascend, make a safety stop and get back on board with 500 PSI. If he isn't an air hog, he would have been able to find an upline, ascend, make a safety stop and still get back on board with 500 PSI. If he is an air hog, he would have cut into his 500 PSI reserve a bit to add a great deal of safety to his dive. There's nothing magical about getting on board with 500 PSI. That extra air is a safety reserve to use when things go wrong. Thing did go wrong, he would have decreased his danger by using part of the reserve to locate an upline. That is exactly why we plan to finish dives with extra air - to use in emergencies or to use to prevent emergencies. He created an emergency by making a free ascent. By using part of his reserve, he would have prevented that emergency.

 

[Scuba_Dad]

I respectfully disagree. He used 2000 PSI fighting a strong current. Once he reached the wreck, he could easily hold onto the wreck and move hand over hand to an upline. He would have used little air to find the upline. The concept of starting the ascent with 1000 PSI was designed to allow an air hog to ascend, make a safety stop and get back on board with 500 PSI. If he isn't an air hog, he would have been able to find an upline, ascend, make a safety stop and still get back on board with 500 PSI. If he is an air hog, he would have cut into his 500 PSI reserve a bit to add a great deal of safety to his dive. There's nothing magical about getting on board with 500 PSI. That extra air is a safety reserve to use when things go wrong. Thing did go wrong, he would have decreased his danger by using part of the reserve to locate an upline. That is exactly why we plan to finish dives with extra air - to use in emergencies or to use to prevent emergencies. He created an emergency by making a free ascent. By using part of his reserve, he would have prevented that emergency.

I can't agree with you, Walter. Searching for a mooring line until he has 500lbs leaves no margin for error, since he has to make his 3 minute safety stop at 15'. His dive briefing was to ascend at 1000PSI. He did that. When he surfaced, he had 650psi. If he would have waited until he was down to 500psi, he would have had 150 or less. Too close for comfort. A free ascent at 1000PSI was an excellent decision. His big mistake was not having there was not having a sausage. He has one now, and he'll probably never dive without one. He learned a valuable lesson.

Al

 

[spectrum]

Two bags? Other stuff is slate, knife, gloves, smb, camera strap, smb and rattle

No spare mask?

Seriously everyone, thanks for the SMB suggestions, order placed.
Pete

 

[Scuba_Dad]

No spare mask?

Seriously everyone, thanks for the SMB suggestions, order placed.
Pete

The bigger the better... within reason, of course. I like the ones you fill like a lift bag with your octo, and have an overpressurization valve.

Al

 

[discrepancy]

The bigger the better... within reason, of course. I like the ones you fill like a lift bag with your octo, and have an overpressurization valve.

Quite a bit to ponder here. Thanks guys.

Just a couple of thought bubbles of my own:

- I think I would have ascended too, and if I had an SMB I would have popped it at the safety stop, or sooner if I had more line.

- If the currents on that site can be as vicious as they were, wouldn't most operators insist that every diver carry a decent SMB, and place extra emphasis during the pre-brief on actions in the event of being swept off the wreck?

I am in the market for a decent SMB - thank you all for your recommendations. It looks like everyone agrees size does matter, and brighter is better.

But what about the closed circuit versus the goose-baffle type? I imagine if you were looking at a long and lonely time alone on the surface, perhaps in bad weather, then a closed circuit system would be a Godsend - extra buoyancy too if required. Does the open circuit type dump air if you don't hold it upright with the bottom end submerged?

Having 15' of line and a small weight permanently attached sounds like a great idea for the safety stop. Is it worth carrying more line and a reel? Why would you need it?

 

[String]

Closed circuit DSMBs are imho far better than the old open ended design. The older design require a constant pull on them to keep them upright as if they fall over the air spills out of the things. Its even more of an issue in big seas. A closed circuit one has a one way valve (or some have lead rimmed bottom) that seals the air in so theres no danger of the air escaping until you deliberately release it through the dump valve.

As for extra buoyancy - yep they provide that on the surface and can be used in a real emergency if you lose all your buoyancy underwater to haul yourself up.

They also make handy lift bags for items about 25kg or less...

As for lots of line and a reel - absolutely essential imho. If you ascend from deep and wait until you hit a 5m stop before deploying in any sort of big current you could have drifted several hundred yards or more from where you started the ascent and as a result could well be away from the surface cover. The best way to be seen is to deploy immediately on starting the ascent (or leaving the wreck or whatever) so the bag comes up next to the surface cover. That makes it easier for them to spot and easier to follow.

 

[Walter]

I can't agree with you, Walter. Searching for a mooring line until he has 500lbs leaves no margin for error, since he has to make his 3 minute safety stop at 15'. His dive briefing was to ascend at 1000PSI. He did that. When he surfaced, he had 650psi. If he would have waited until he was down to 500psi, he would have had 150 or less. Too close for comfort. A free ascent at 1000PSI was an excellent decision. His big mistake was not having there was not having a sausage. He has one now, and he'll probably never dive without one. He learned a valuable lesson.

Al

Al, I don't remember recommending he stay down until he reached 500 PSI. I said it wasn't crucial for him to reach the boat with 500 PSI. If he used 450 PSI to surface and make his safety stop, then he would likely have actually reached the surface with 500 PSI remaining had he taken a little time to go to an up line. Up lines on the Grove are numerous and easy to find. One is never far from an up line on the Grove.

 

[Scuba_Dad]

Al, I don't remember recommending he stay down until he reached 500 PSI. I said it wasn't crucial for him to reach the boat with 500 PSI. If he used 450 PSI to surface and make his safety stop, then he would likely have actually reached the surface with 500 PSI remaining had he taken a little time to go to an up line. Up lines on the Grove are numerous and easy to find. One is never far from an up line on the Grove.

Walter,
I misread your message. My apologies... :sorry19z: If it would have been me, I would have looked for the line a little longer, but... I've been on the grove several times, and I know where about all the lines are. This was the diver's second dive on the Grove, so... he didn't have the knowledge where the lines were. Plus.. he's a fairly new diver... and his first time (dive #2) on a wreck. Plus, the dive briefing included the contingency of 1000PSI and no mooring line. Do the two recommended safety stops, inflate BC (and dump weights if necessary), and enjoy the ride on the surface.... That's what he did.

Al

 

[RonFrank]

While doing his free descent to the deck, the strong current pushed him away from the Grove. He recovered, and he swam back to the ship. By the time he got back to the Grove, he could not find any other divers, and he was down to 1000 PSI.

I have only done the Grove once, but I don't remember any Fee Decent to the deck that would result in getting pushed so fast and far off the ship?

The rope is anchored TO the ship, so one can go all the way down to the deck?

I drifted the entire ship, so we started at the sten, and drifted to the aft. The current was ripping on the decent and ascent, but not bad on the ship.

IMO while I'm not going to second guess the boat Capt, seems to me that IF the current is that strong that the best and safest way to dive this wreck is to have the boat drop the divers off up current, and then meet them down current, and do this as a drift. Then anyone who is pulled off the line on the ascent, will drift on ship rather than away from the wreck.

 

[pilot fish]

No spare mask?

Seriously everyone, thanks for the SMB suggestions, order placed.
Pete

Nope, no spare mask. I think that might be a tad uneccessary. Just don't have the room for that.

Was just thinking of one of my dives on the Grove. I was down to 800 psi, 15 or so feet above the deck, and could not see where the ascent line was, nor could my buddy. As I swam forward to where I thought the line was, I was slowly ascending. Must not have been a lot of current that day or else I would have been pushed way off the wreck. I found the line and swam toward it at a slightly up angle and was able to do my SS and get back to the boat. If the current had been as strong as faced that diver, my dive would have had a different ending.