Spare Air

[RIDIVER501]

There have been a few board members who reported that carrying a pony encouraged them to exercise poor judgement in some of their diving decisions. But, unless you believe a pony is going to catalyze bad judgement, it should not compromise safety.

But apparently, doubles do not induce the same affliction!

If we want to get technical for all the whining and complaining about how bad, poorly trained, whatever (insert your favorite adjective/adjective phrase at the whatever) most divers are (according to the masses on this board), just thinking about putting on any tank at all seems to be the catalyst for bad judgement.

 

[Nobby]

If we want to get technical for all the whining and complaining about how bad, poorly trained, whatever (insert your favorite adjective/adjective phrase at the whatever) most divers are (according to the masses on this board), just thinking about putting on any tank at all seems to be the catalyst for bad judgement.

Roger, loud and clear. There can be no replacement for good judgement and safe procedures. Carrying extra safety does not enhance poor diving practices, and in the case of SPARE AIR which is specific designed with EMERGENCY ascent in mind only (that is why it is so small) you should also agree. Anyone that dives and thinks they can expend their all their air and finish the dive on the spare air is clearly barking mad (as many have pointed out you'd only get about 20 breaths from it), good riddance to them, just don't dive on my boat. The majority of us, that frequent this board, I would like to think adopt safe and conservative diving practices.

Diving with a PONY is not necessary unless you are diving close to the limits, doing tech diving and feel that you may need some backup, that is what PONY'S were designed for. SPARE AIR, not really a back up designed as an emergency equipment. PONY's IMO could considerably increase the likelihood of some diving outside their limits simply because they have more air. SPARE AIR by virtue of it's size could not significantly increase dive time. And those that carry one for it's intended use know this!

 

[RIDIVER501]

in the case of SPARE AIR which is specific designed with EMERGENCY ascent in mind only (that is why it is so small) you should also agree.

I do not agree with that statement. if you have been down long enough to require switching to a spare air in an OOA situation, you have probably been down long enough to require a safety stop.

Diving with a PONY is not necessary unless you are diving close to the limits doing tech diving and feel that you may need some backup, that is what PONY'S were designed for.

Again not a true statement any time one is going to be deeper then 60 feet and/or doing a dive that may require a safety stop it is a prudent and recommended practice to have a redundant air source available. ie. a pony. In tech diving a redundant air source isn't a recommendation it is a requirement. and this doesn't include ponies that are taken to be used for rapid deco proceedures they are a whole other animal

PONY's IMO could considerably increase the likelihood of some diving outside their limits simply because they have more air.

Granted it is your opinion: I have not seen any evidence of divers using a pony to extend their dive time or depth to push the limits as a standard practice in either recreational or technical arenas. Every diver who I have seen use a pony (in 26 years of diving) has used it because of a malfuntion of their primary air source. They shifted to their redundant system and terminated the dive. I am not sure who you are diving with but if the circle you frequent uses the practice you say ponies support, I would be worried.

SPARE AIR by virtue of it's size could not significantly increase dive time. And those that carry one for it's intended use know this!

No they don't know this. This thread was started by someone asking if it was ok to use a Spare air as a primary air souce to extend free diving and others posted asking if it were ok to use it as a primary air souce to "go unstick their anchor"

Spare air was a good idea in theroy for diving but lacks the capacity to be a viable piece of safety equipment. For downed pilots for air frame egress or parachute entanglement at or near the surface to use as an emergency egress tool from burning engineering spaces it has my blessing. For diving it lacks the capacity to be viable and becuase of this create a false sense of security in it's users. I don't want to just be able to walk a way from a diving incident I want to be able to walk away from a diving incident deco free.

I did some research yesterday on cost.
and on average for $50 to $70 more then the 3cuft spare air costs you can be in a 30-40cuft pony with a decent low cost, reliable regulator and have 10 times Plus the air capacity to help you get to the surface and make required safety stops in an OOA/primary air source failure with plenty to spare. I'll go with option B and be having nice relaxing after dive diversion while you option Aer are soaking up chamber time. Hope you paid your DAN insurance, you're gonna need it.

 

[JeffG]

I do not agree with that statement

He loves his spare air....let him have it

 

[Nobby]

I do not agree with that statement. if you have been down long enough to require switching to a spare air in an OOA situation, you have probably been down long enough to require a safety stop.


Again not a true statement any time one is going to be deeper then 60 feet and/or doing a dive that may require a safety stop it is a prudent and recommended practice to have a redundant air source available. ie. a pony. In tech diving a redundant air source isn't a recommendation it is a requirement. and this doesn't include ponies that are taken to be used for rapid deco proceedures they are a whole other animal


Granted it is your opinion: I have not seen any evidence of divers using a pony to extend their dive time or depth to push the limits as a standard practice in either recreational or technical arenas. Every diver who I have seen use a pony (in 26 years of diving) has used it because of a malfuntion of their primary air source. They shifted to their redundant system and terminated the dive. I am not sure who you are diving with but if the circle you frequent uses the practice you say ponies support, I would be worried.


No they don't know this. This thread was started by someone asking if it was ok to use a Spare air as a primary air souce to extend free diving and others posted asking if it were ok to use it as a primary air souce to "go unstick their anchor"

Spare air was a good idea in theroy for diving but lacks the capacity to be a viable piece of safety equipment. For downed pilots for air frame egress or parachute entanglement at or near the surface to use as an emergency egress tool from burning engineering spaces it has my blessing. For diving it lacks the capacity to be viable and becuase of this create a false sense of security in it's users. I don't want to just be able to walk a way from a diving incident I want to be able to walk away from a diving incident deco free.

I did some research yesterday on cost.
and on average for $50 to $70 more then the 3cuft spare air costs you can be in a 30-40cuft pony with a decent low cost, reliable regulator and have 10 times Plus the air capacity to help you get to the surface and make required safety stops in an OOA/primary air source failure with plenty to spare. I'll go with option B and be having nice relaxing after dive diversion while you option Aer are soaking up chamber time. Hope you paid your DAN insurance, you're gonna need it.

Look, I don't dive irresponsibly. Cast aspersions as much as you like. The circle I frequent don't use Ponys; I don't use them. Hell, I never intend to use my spare air either. OOA situations are always a result of running low on air, the sooner that people realise this the better. The debate was not about SPARE AIR versus PONY anyway. PONYs need training before they can be used effectively, any SPARE AIR doesn't, it provides an easy accessible emergency device to get you out of a sticky situation. You never plan for sticky situations and they don't occur to a pattern, are you saying that every single dive you make should be done with a PONY? Some entry level divers have enough problems diving with 3 hoses and in a 3mm shorty. Add another tank, another 2nd stage and hose, a 7mm wetsuit, gloves, hood and it all becomes too much. PONYs will indeed allow you to do a safety stop and hopefully surface out of deco. Do you dive with one every time you enter the oggin? Versatility versus practicality! There's an issue!

 

[The Chairman]

Jeff has made a wonderful point. At this time we all seem to be flaggelating a deceased equine. Unless you have something really NEW to say, let's just agree to disagree here.

 

[RIDIVER501]

Hell, I never intend to use my spare air either. !

Nobody goes out and intends on getting in car accidents either but they happen.

OOA situations are always a result of running low on air, the sooner that people realise this the better. !

I can't resist on this one, so when I run low on air I will then out of air then I am in an OOA situation?? I see, Thanks for shedding light on that one.

The debate was not about SPARE AIR versus PONY anyway. !

But it evolved into one.

PONYs need training before they can be used effectively, any SPARE AIR doesn't, it provides an easy accessible emergency device to get you out of a sticky situation. !

Funny a pony looks like the regular tank I use. the reg system looks like the regular reg I use. Humm where did I get that specialized training..ummm in my basic open water course. How to set up my gear. how to use it...tough one use of an alternate air souce skill..... now spare air....doesn't look like anything I was exposed to in basic OW course. used like a alternate air source, covered in basic OW. How to fill it. humm that becomes my responsibility not the LDS's...ok need to be trained on that. How the componets fit togeter and how to turn it on. didn't get that in basic OW.

So your point is invalid. you get all the training for how to use and set up a pony on basic OW minus how to attach it to yourself or primary unit. Spare air can and should require additional training especially if the spare air user is one of those pesky entry level divers having trouble with those 3 hoses of theirs. (see your comment below)

You never plan for sticky situations and they don't occur to a pattern, !

As a safety officer from my naval days that is incorrect there are always patterns that can be traced back to recreate the cause of an accident/incident. those patterns usually also have tell tale signs that if one is vigilant they can see and identify those signs to halt the pattern and avoid disaster. that is where that whole preventative measure thing comes in handy from the rescue diver course.

are you saying that every single dive you make should be done with a PONY? !

I am an instructor. I dive routinely with a pony. more for my students sake them my own. when I am diving for fun I rarely take a pony if I am diving less then 80 feet. deeper then 80 on a fun dive I do have the pony.

Some entry level divers have enough problems diving with 3 hoses and in a 3mm shorty. Add another tank, another 2nd stage and hose, a 7mm wetsuit, gloves, hood and it all becomes too much. !

Not going to slide off on a training tangent here.

PONYs will indeed allow you to do a safety stop and hopefully surface out of deco.!

enough said here. one point we agree on

Do you dive with one every time you enter the oggin? Versatility versus practicality! There's an issue!

redundant already answered above. not sure what oggin is but I will assume it's water in some shape or form.

 

[DaFireMedic]

I did some research yesterday on cost.
and on average for $50 to $70 more then the 3cuft spare air costs you can be in a 30-40cuft pony with a decent low cost, reliable regulator and have 10 times Plus the air capacity to help you get to the surface and make required safety stops in an OOA/primary air source failure with plenty to spare. I'll go with option B and be having nice relaxing after dive diversion while you option Aer are soaking up chamber time. Hope you paid your DAN insurance, you're gonna need it.

This is an honest question, and I am seriously seeking information that will be useful in evaluating my setup. I noticed that several on the board have advocated using pony bottles as large as 40 cu ft for any dive over 50', and as large as 19 cu ft. for dives under 50' but they don't state why they choose one this large (I have searched many threads). Is this much gas volume really necessary for a bail out system at these depths under normal recreational type conditions, i.e. no overhead environment, etc and within NDL? I use a 13' pony that gives me more than a 5 minute safety stop after a 30' per minute ascent from 100'. Are there good reasons that I should consider switching to a larger pony than this?

 

[RIDIVER501]

This is an honest question, and I am seriously seeking information that will be useful in evaluating my setup. I noticed that several on the board have advocated using pony bottles as large as 40 cu ft for any dive over 50', and as large as 19 cu ft. for dives under 50' but they don't state why they choose one this large (I have searched many threads). Is this much gas volume really necessary for a bail out system at these depths under normal recreational type conditions, i.e. no overhead environment, etc and within NDL? I use a 13' pony that gives me more than a 5 minute safety stop after a 30' per minute ascent from 100'. Are there good reasons that I should consider switching to a larger pony than this?

I don't know of any reason other then personal choice for recommending bottles that large. I use 30cuft pony. I don't use it for dive I am doing less then 80 feet unless i am diving with students and only then dive it when I am taking the stu's deeper then 60 feet. I have really good air consumption so the pony is more for their use then mine.

If I find any supporting documentation that puts in black and white the criteria you listed I will let you know.

 

[redacted]

This is an honest question, and I am seriously seeking information that will be useful in evaluating my setup. I noticed that several on the board have advocated using pony bottles as large as 40 cu ft for any dive over 50', and as large as 19 cu ft. for dives under 50' but they don't state why they choose one this large (I have searched many threads). Is this much gas volume really necessary for a bail out system at these depths under normal recreational type conditions, i.e. no overhead environment, etc and within NDL? I use a 13' pony that gives me more than a 5 minute safety stop after a 30' per minute ascent from 100'. Are there good reasons that I should consider switching to a larger pony than this?

I think it depends on the assumptions you want to make as you plan your redundant air use. Do you assume you will spend a minute or 2 at depth breathing your pony while trying to remedy the problem? How much increase in SAC do you assume as you deal with your problem? What rate of ascent do you assume? How many rest stops? How long? If you go with all very conservative (safe) assumptions, it's easy to work out a requirement for more than 13 or 19 cu ft. If you start by assuming you will spend 2 minutes trying to fix the problem at 100 ft, with your SAC doubled, those teen aged ponies are starting to get pretty light before you even start up!