Spare Air

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awap:
But in some cases those approaches are just not possible and practical.
In THOSE cases, I just don't dive. Just like when my brakes don't work, I don't drive my car. It's a conscious choice to not put my life or the lives of others in needless peril. Call me conservative; I'm guilty!
 
chrisch:
Nevertheless the original post was about its use for freediving, not scuba. In that context it might have some value, but get some training.....

Chris
Actually...Its worse for freediving than scuba
 
Lil' Irish Temper:
[presumably from SA site]
"....... So I ditched weights, pulled out Spare Air and made an easy ascent to the surface. ........”
What a crock!

(Assuming he existed) He almost certainly had a weight belt so it is all or nothing. He was probably overweighted (weren't we all?). So he ditches the lot and he's going to be heading to the surface like a posidion missile. "Easy ascent" - Ha - who is writing this fiction?
 
Grajan:
What a crock!

(Assuming he existed) He almost certainly had a weight belt so it is all or nothing. He was probably overweighted (weren't we all?). So he ditches the lot and he's going to be heading to the surface like a posidion missile. "Easy ascent" - Ha - who is writing this fiction?

It is a bunch of crap like you said... Testimonials can be written by anybody. If you read them they act like their product is the best ever made... Kind of like those infomercials on T.V.
 
I'm still fairly new and am piecing together what I like and don't like and what works for me and what doesn't. These things seem obvious to me though:

awap:
I agree that a good buddy,
Why dive with a bad buddy?

awap:
or a redundent gas supply adequately sized to terminate a dive in a normal fashion
Who in their right mind would intentionally dive with a backup gas supply that they knew would not allow that?

awap:
are preferable to something like a spare air. But in some cases those approaches are just not possible and practical.
Then call the dive.

awap:
I guess if you have never found yourself without a known good buddy or out of range of your doubles due to travel requirements, then the proposed solution will always be sufficient and adequate. But doubles are a bit hard to carry on a dive vacation, divers do find themselves on a boat full of strangers, and most Cozumel DMs are going to lead their pack thru those swimthroughs. For those situations, the convienient safety margin provided by a spare air or pony may be a very reasonable precaution. While I prefer a small pony when I'm not with a known buddy, I've often thought how much easier a spare air would pack and travel.

The air in my pony gets used a lot but has never been used to extend a dive. I like to test it often.
Doubles can be rented, dives with a dangerous buddy can be terminated and you don't have to follow the DM through the swimthrough.
If everyone would honor and use, "Anyone can call any dive at any time for any reason without fear of repercussions", there would be a lot fewer avoidable accidents. If Rescue taught me anything it was that the best accident is one that doesn't happen. I highly recommend everyone take the Rescue diver course. It makes you (at least it made me) much more aware of myself and the others around me when getting ready for a dive. If anything seems wrong about a dive and I can't figure out what it is and/or fix it then I call the dive. I'd rather do that than rely on 12 laboured breaths. Everyone chooses what risks they are willing to take in this sport. Some find them all completely unacceptable and don't dive and at the other end there are people diving beyond their training and experience. More towards the middle is the Spare Air debate. Some are willing to trust the effectiveness of the thing and some aren't. IMO, those that oppose it are so strong in their conviction because they see it as unsafe using their definition of "safe" and take other measures to solve the problem that supporters feel they have solved to their satisfaction using the SA.

Examining some of the fanmail showed several examples of totally avoidable incidents that should never have happened. To me that means that there were a lot of skills not used prior to the dives. I can't accept reliance on a device, let alone one with the limited capabilities this one has, to be an acceptable replacement for the knowledge and application of skills. That is why I dislike them.

I dive a lot with students, usually in the 20' range, so it's pretty shallow. I considered carrying one to be able to quickly hand off to a student if needed but ruled it out. Any situation that would require deployment of my SA would be better managed by me sharing air like we taught them. Handing off a SA to a student is just inviting them to bolt to the surface. Either that or they suck it down before you are able to get them calm enough to ascend and you are left sharing air anyway. That was the choice I made and it can't be wrong because I made up the rules for the decision.
Anyway, everyone make a choice for whatever reasons and be happy.

Joe

Holy crud. I didn't mean to ramble on that long. One thought just lead to another and another... Sorry.
 
DaFireMedic:
How does this mean that someone is disregarding limts?



Exactly what I would use one for. It makes sense.



This is the biggest problem that I have with the arguments against using a redundant air source. Why should I choose or dismiss a piece of equipment based on the knowledge that some other people may use it in an unsafe manner or a use for which it is clearly not intended? If that was the case, I wouldn't own a chainsaw, a hammer, or a dive knife for that matter.



There are 3 rules that I have come to live by in my 14 years of emergency work, including many operations in extremely hazardous environments:

“Never say never”:
You can greatly reduce the risk of bad things happening through training and planning, but you cannot completely eliminate the unexpected. Those who say that they will never have an out of air emergency because they are well trained/experienced or good at planning are asking for trouble. Just because it has not happened to you yet, does not mean that it never will. Always plan for the worst, to lessen the chance that a problem at depth will become a fatal one. As a confined space rescue instructor, I will never make entry into a low oxygen or toxic environment without my bail out bottle. It is not a crutch, but a safety tool in the event of a catastrophic failure of my main system.

“It ain’t over till its over”:
If I ever find myself in an OOA situation underwater, I will use every tool that I have to get to the surface. If I was at 130 fsw, I’d sure as heck try the ascent with a 6 cu ft pony bottle, or even a Spare Air if that’s all I had, over an ESA any day, and I have little doubt that I’d make it to the surface. It may not be a safe 60’ per minute ascent and I would be risking other, treatable dive maladies, but it is far better than the alternative. DCI is treatable, remaining underwater with no air to breathe is 100% fatal. That being said, I would never carry a bottle that small for a dive that deep as it is clearly inadequate, and there are far better choices available. But to those who say that you would be better off with nothing at all on rec dives, I must disagree.

“Simpler is safer”
The less complicated something is, the less likely you (as a human) are to screw things up, and the less humans you have in your "chain of survival", the less likely things are to go wrong. If you or your buddy end up in an OOA situation, it is almost always better to resolve the situation yourself rather than ascend connected to a buddy. The rate of double accidents on shared air ascents testifies to this. Some divers here say that they train regularly with their buddies on sharing air, etc, and this certainly the right thing to do, as long as you practice with everyone you dive with. But most people don’t do this, and it will not help with the unknown dive buddy that you are paired with on the boat against your will. But of even greater concern to me is the fact that you never know how someone is going to react when faced with a sudden emergency until they are actually faced with it. Training and practice certainly help, but at least twice now I’ve seen divers bolt toward the surface with eyes as big as saucers. I certainly don’t want to be attached to that person when he runs out of air. And I’ve seen several more do it from hazardous environments on land, despite literally hundreds of hours of training. You simply do not know for sure when someone is going to panic.

Anyway, the bottom line is self sufficiency. You can enjoy buddy diving, be a good dive buddy, and still be self sufficient. If your buddy needs you, you are there. But if he can resolve the problem using self sufficiency, even better. Safe diving involves planning, and that means planning for the unexpected. A fully redundant air supply is a valid part of that equation.
Hear hear!
 
Sideband:
Why dive with a bad buddy?
.

Actually, I have never rejected a buddy and don't think I would do so unless the experience got really bad. I guess you could just limit your diving and only dive with buddies you are comfortable with. But that is not what I would do. Nor would I trust an unknown buddy to be my primary reserve gas supply. I'd be looking for other reliable options and avoid such potentially dangerous dependencies.

Only place I've ever seen doubles in the caribbean was at a DS in Akumal that did cave trips. If you wanted them badly enough in a place like Cozumel, you might be able to make the arrangements. Or you could just dive Akumal. I did see them once in a shallow river I often dive in central TX. They were out of place.

It's probably easier to stick to your standard for buddies and gas redundency at local dive sites or if you carefully select and plan dive travel.
 
NetDoc:
RIDiver... A true redundant air supply would be equal to the main supply. The best erdundancy is a double tank with an isolation manifold.
IMO this is not entirely true. while the example you provided is one type of redundancy. I would call it equal redundancy. Equal redundancy isn't always necessary. The Characteristics of any redundant system are separate air supply (cylinder) with a first stage, second stage and SPG at a minimum. Size of air supply should be gauged based on proper dive planning and be adequate to safely ascend and perform any necessary safety stops.

NetDoc:
Anything less than a 40 at any depth is useless.
I totally disagree here. If a diver is properly planning a dive (with in the recreational no decompression limits) and has a temporary mental vacation that blows their planned profile or an equipment malfunction that causes a LOA/OOA situation. A 30 or even a 20 (depending on the divers air comsumption) should be adequate to safely ascend and make any required safety stop. IMO 3cuft from a spare air is not adequate for this purpose.

NetDoc:
Feel free to dive in any way you please, but I would not stake my life on redunancy just for lip service.
This means what? what lip service? Please clarify. I don't see how bring a pony compromises my safety.

"Feel free to dive in any way I please?" Gee I am not sure wether to wonder why I am diving at all or to thank you for allowing me to make my own safety decisions which happen to be based on safe an prudent industry recommendations.
 
RIDIVER501:
Please clarify. I don't see how bring a pony compromises my safety.
.

There have been a few board members who reported that carrying a pony encouraged them to exercise poor judgement in some of their diving decisions. But, unless you believe a pony is going to catalyze bad judgement, it should not compromise safety.

But apparently, doubles do not induce the same affliction!
 
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