Solo diving and back up gear.

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People People, please clam down. Thank you all for the advise I will have to due some more looking into this and keep my solo dive from shore and around 60 feet or so. Thank you all for the advise again. If you would like to PM me about this please due. I check this board at least 6 to 10 times a day depending that I am not on a RUN or out diving.
Thanks again,
Matt
 
I thought both Mike and Chris had some excellent points. New here but why fight over the obvious. These two guys dive different types of water and therefore their approaches differ. One fellow prefers an equipment intensive approach and the other prefers to get by with as little as possible. Thanks for the excellent discussion.
Are there any books or magazines out there that cover all this? The internet is a great but with all the flaming it makes it diffucult to ferret out the good info. N
 
msandler:
Of course this depends on the diving you are doing but for the average recreational dive (excuse the assumption), you should be fine with a minimal <read simple> setup including:
SBM or liftbag and small reel
Single Cylinder and H-valve with 2 Regs (first and second only - no octo's)
[not necessary IMO, but a drysuit would really round off redundancy]

You can go with a pony but why muck with it if is not necessary. Minimal gear is always less complicated and less effort. Its the task loading that will create problems.

what happens when you loose the tank valve o ring under your h valve?
 
same thing that happens when your tank suddenly fractures. You should give up diving.
 
bottomrunner:
what happens when you loose the tank valve o ring under your h valve?
I have to say in 20 years of divng and in 20 years of owning my own tanks (22 tanks at present) and 20 plus years of hanging around and working in dive shops, I have never seen a tank neck o-ring failure. Not to say it can't happen, but the odds of it happening are virtually zero with proper maintenence.

However, the major problem with an H valve in my opinion is still that the air source is not truly redundant. If for whatever reason you use or lose the contents of the main tank, that's it, you are out of air. I have personally experienced 2 SPG failures, one where the reading was several hundred psi high and one where the gauge stuck. With a little less situational awareness and with less expectation as to how much air should have been remaining, both could have led to an OOA situation. With a pony or independent doubles it would have been no big deal. With a H-valve it would have been a major problem at depth and/or with a deco obligation.
 
Give me a 30 pony and a good reg set up on it,you will get top side safe,hose,o-ring,free flow,,.ect just works for me !
just my 2 cents worth!
Brad
 
I have never heard a good argument supporting a pony bottle. Not to be confused with a stage bottle (40cuft min.), a pony is virtually useless, it also creates drag and effort required for extra gear and associated clutter. In an air-sharing situation, one of you would be left with a very limited air supply (the pony) OR you will still need to have an octopus on your primary regulator 1st stage. Now you have three 2nd stages and two pressure gauges between the main tank and the pony. For comparison, an H-valve allows you one less 2nd stage and one less spg. Additionally, it allows you redundant access to your primary air (large) source should one of the regulators fail. The only failure that the H does not cover is; a tank fracture or catastrophic valve breach. Even a failed tank O-ring will not prevent a safe ascent – it takes a surprising amount of time to vent a tank completely by opening the valve all the way on land (an o-ring failure will take longer to exhaust all your air and you would definitely be aware of the problem with plenty of time to surface from recreational depths). Regardless, a tank or valve breaking is astronomically unlikely. An H-valve allows you to connect two 1st stages to the tank, it also allows you to shut the valve to either post should one of the regs. have a failure thus preserving you main gas supply –you will not vent all you air through the faulty regulator (either or both 1st and 2nd stage faults). With proper gas management skills (not breathing your tank down to 100psi), an H-valve will provide continuous access to a large air source where a pony will provide only a few breaths. You should practice operating your valves underwater, even adjust your tank position to enable reaching either valve if necessary. For recreational diving, if you can make a safe ascent with a pony bottle, you can make a safe ascent without one (whether you continue to breathe from a faulty regulator or you simply make an out of air ascent). Consider the limited air supply with a pony, a realistic working consumption rate at depth and you can see a pony merely extends your primary failed air source by a few minutes. An H-valve provides excellent redundancy with simplicity and minimal gear and thus minimal diver stress due to gear handling in an emergency. A good H setup will have a 1st stage on each post with one 2nd stage for each 1st - no octopuses. One SPG, one BC whip (dry suit whip if necessary, which should be connected to the post that does not have the BC whip for optimal buoyancy redundancy). Put your primary 2nd on the right post 1st stage, the BC whip and spg on the left with the other 2nd (for nicer hose routing). Finally, if you are diving with a ceiling (either deco or overhead environment), a true stage bottle is the best choice (That is, in the absence of doubles, independant or manifolded) but; an H-valve is the second best and certainly better than a pony which will provide only enough air to say your prayers or get you bent. An H is redundant for 99% of failures and 100% of likely failures. Remember, if even one little failure occurs, the dive is OVER even if you successfully handle the problem. Ponies are for posers. An octopus alone is nice for buddy breathing, but if your primary 2nd stage fails open, you will continue to lose air through it even if you switch to the octo. Your best bet is to breathe the freeflowing 2nd , relax and surface in a controlled fashion (at least you can “use” the escaping air). Again, it will take a long time to empty your tank unless you have 100psi in it. The octo’s primary function is to give to your out of air dive buddy.
 
I think it is a semantic argument, but semantics aside I agree with with you on several points.

A small "pony" is useless. 19 cu ft is the minimum in my opinion for non-deco deep diving. 30 cu ft is the minimum useful size for deco diving as anything less will not get you or your OOA buddy to the surface on a moderate deco dive.

Operationally speaking, a slung pony/stage/deco/sling bottle (call it whatever you like)works better as it can be handed off to an OOA diver. Even with rule of thirds planning on deco dives with any significant decompression, it quickly becomes impossible to get an OOA buddy and yourself through the deco requirment on a single 1/3 backgas reserve alone. What would end up occurring if your moronic dive buddy lost both his backgas and his deco gas is that the OOA buddy would need to take the deco bottle and complete the accelerated deco schedule and you would end up doing a much longer deco on the backgas. As long as the reserve is adequate to meet that deco requirement, everybody lives. But with a hard mounted pony, where you are forced to stay together during the deco, someone is going to end up OOA again and/or bent.

But solo diving adds a twist as there would be no moronic buddy around to screw up and there would be no need to split the remaining gas supply between 2 divers at different depths. So whether the 30-40 ft stage/deco bottle is slung or mounted as a pony is a moot issue. Size is what counts in the situation, not what you choose to call it.
 
DA Aquamaster:
I have to say in 20 years of divng and in 20 years of owning my own tanks (22 tanks at present) and 20 plus years of hanging around and working in dive shops, I have never seen a tank neck o-ring failure. Not to say it can't happen, but the odds of it happening are virtually zero with proper maintenence.

.

I've seen it twice. Both times AL tanks 1 -80, 1-100 and both had corrosion under the O-ring mating surface. Both times it happened within a few minutes of filling. I used to fill tanks for a charter operator and they would sometimes come in dead-empty. I suspect water in the tank was the cause of the corrosion.
 
msandler, daquamaster -

thanks for the info on the pony bottles / h-valve. I am thinking of getting either a 19cf pony bottle (slung; DIY) or a h-valve and larger tank. I would use it for solo diving off a beach, no deeper than 80 feet, no deco dives, no overhead. Do these pros/cons seem correct, for my situation?

H-valve plus larger tank:
pros:
more streamlined, only 1 spg
you don't look like a poser
cons:
higher cost? (I would have to buy a larger tank + hvalve)
no protection from broken/ stuck SPG
no protection from not watching your air, chasing a whale shark, going to 0 PSI

19cf Pony bottle:
Pros:
protection from all types of reg/ tank failures, out of air situation
Cons:
Drag, effort, clutter; extra SPG

thanks alot,
Scott
 

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