Socorro Aggressor shut down

[scubadada]

...My 5 Aggressor trips (Red Sea, Maldives, Palau, Rock Island, Okeanos 1) have been good too. In fact I was in Palau Aggressor twice. May be I have been lucky with Aggressors 6 times?

I have far fewer liveaboard trips than my friend @Dan but have had a similar experience with Aggressor. I have done 2 weeks with Aggressor on the Red Sea, a week in Cocos, a week in Galapagos, a week in the Caymans, and a week in Belize. All 6 trips were very good and went off without a hitch. Of course, the Red Sea Aggressor I caught fire and sank on November 1, 2019, with the loss on one passenger's life. This was 3 1/2 years after I did BDE and the Southern route on the RSA I

 

[mcohen1021]

I agree with you with one caveat. What were the terms and conditions of the contract between the customer and vendor? If the customer agrees to this in the purchase contract, this is all moot. What does Blue Water promise in the sale?

In my case I was told there was no risk, postponements would be moved to a future date and that Philippines Siren was honoring the price. Cancel in 2020, then 2021, they said the price was going back to 4200, and we'd have to pay the difference. All while they held my full payment for 2 years.
Bluewater would not issue a refund, but offered me a trip on any other boat they sold, so we didd the Roatan Aggressor.

Unrelated, we decided to stay on the island a few more days and got stranded in Hurricane Eta

 

[tridacna]

In my case I was told there was no risk, postponements would be moved to a future date and that Philippines Siren was honoring the price. Cancel in 2020, then 2021, they said the price was going back to 4200, and we'd have to pay the difference. All while they held my full payment for 2 years.
Bluewater would not issue a refund, but offered me a trip on any other boat they sold, so we didd the Roatan Aggressor.

Unrelated, we decided to stay on the island a few more days and got stranded in Hurrican Eta :O

I hear ye. Was there a written contract? This is definitely making me much more aware of how important a written contract is when you book these trips. Trust does not go very far.

 

[mcohen1021]

I hear ye. Was there a written contract? This is definitely making me much more aware of how important a written contract is when you book these trips. Trust does not go very far.

Nope, what was verbally promised was not matched in writing. Obviously, whats in black and white rules unless you go to court with a recording

 

[drrich2]

In my case I was told there was no risk, postponements would be moved to a future date and that Philippines Siren was honoring the price. Cancel in 2020, then 2021, they said the price was going back to 4200, and we'd have to pay the difference.

This is a good point people should be aware of. I originally booked an Indo-Siren trip (Master Liveaboard Fleet) for Dec. 2021 on a 20% off sale (which saved me over a grand), it got cancelled due to the pandemic and I had my agent reschedule for Dec. 2022, I asked and was told the reschedule wasn't 'price-protected,' but they were going to try to get a better deal for their guests. Here's a line from an e-mail to me:

"

The reschedule is not price protected, but we have a meeting with the owners of the Siren and Master leet of boats next week to negotiate a better option for our guests.

"

I did not have to pay more, but my reschedule was only for one year, not two.

I don't like it that a sale price trip I'd committed to wasn't price-protected and I could potentially have to pay more on a reschedule, but that wasn't Blue Water Dive Travel's fault and Master Liveaboards did make it right.

Speaking of which, just so that not only the bad things get reported, late on the Indo-Siren trip, the engine got a hole in it and we were stuck (albeit with power and kept diving, we just couldn't go anywhere) in Misool. Our cruise director Alexa was top notch, kept us informed, advocated for us, and Master Liveaboard Fleet hired a speed boat (enclosed, like a bus on water) to come get us the next day and take us back to Sorong, put us up in the Swiss-Belhotel for a night (and covered dinner), waived rental gear fees (including the $45 for my big 100-cf tank), gave us the Indo-Siren logo metal drink thermoses, packed all our dives in (we even had 31 offered instead of 30) and took us to the hotel and the next day got us to the airport.

The timing was great for us. It was such that I imagine some people coming for the next trip were already on planes en route, and Tim Yeo mentioned they had a number of guests down for the week following mine and he'd spent the whole weekend trying to rebook them on alternative boats. I don't know how the funding situation there goes; did those people have to pay regular price for the alternative boats and get no refunds? Or did they get refunds? Discount rates? What?

For the Indo-Siren trip, Master Liveaboard Fleet required us to have both dive insurance (Raja Ampat is remote, and if seriously compromised being flown to a distant care center is a real possibility) and also trip insurance. From the Master Liveaboard Fleet's FAQ page:

"Diving and travel insurance is a condition of booking for all guests on all of our vessels.

All guests travelling aboard our liveaboards must ensure they are fully covered for all diving accident and emergency situations, including air evacuation. This is a mandatory requirement.

We also strongly advise our guests to obtain comprehensive travel insurance to cover against unforeseeable delays and potential missed flight connections."

---

Note: I went into this because I think the current practices of liveaboard companies are relevant to the discussion. I have no particular opinion as to which fleet is 'better' than the competition (e.g.: Aggressor, Explorer Ventures, Master Liveaboards); I'm just relating a recent experience. I'd like to hear from people who were scheduled for the week after me that got canceled.

P.S.: Bit of trivia. We were told there's no tugboat service in the region, so they hired a fishing boat to tow the Indo-Siren back to Sorong, and a new engine was en route from Makassar.

 

[SlugLife]

I agree with you with one caveat. What were the terms and conditions of the contract between the customer and vendor? If the customer agrees to this in the purchase contract, this is all moot. What does Blue Water promise in the sale?

I'm talking about scams from a functional and moral perspective. If someone takes your money in exchanges for a good or service, and doesn't deliver, that's a scam. If it's a one-sided contract, where the tiny fine-print says "we don't have to offer a refund" .... well, that's also a scam. Now ,if it's in bold-print on the front of the contract, and you were well aware of it (i.e. an investment), that not really a scam, that's an understood risk,

If you're talking legal, that's a whole other ball-park. Legally speaking, you've got an uphill battle if the contract is written in a one-sided manner "we can take your money and are not obligated to give you anything in return." There is a concept of "unenforceable contracts" but I'll stop here to avoid going down the rabbit-holes of legal discussion I have little interest in.

you inherently accept some risk when making any reservation, its not like airlines and hotels don't go bankrupt either.

I had 5 different vendors in entertainment industries, who didn't go bankrupt, refuse to offer a service I paid for and simply kept my money, no refunds. Many offered a "credit" but nearly 3 years later, there is no way for me to spend that credit. They probably didn't intend to scam me, but functionally, when times got tough, they did.

If someone goes bankrupt, you might be screwed in practical terms of getting your money back.

One unfortunate side-effect of all this, is that I've completely, 100% stopped participating in any "early bird tickets" or pre-payment. I've even stopped an entire hobby, because I got so burned and burned out by the whole affair. I could never give the same people a penny ever again, because they already have $50, $100, $300 of my money that they never delivered the promised product or service.

In practical terms, in most of these cases, kiss your money goodbye. It's not worth suing, even if you could win, like you said "good luck squeezing blood from a stone." That's why your best options to protect yourselves from these scams is:

• avoiding being in the situation in the first place, perhaps even paying at the moment the goods-or-services are delivered
• leaving nasty, harsh, and very public reviews to warn other people away from these scammers and fraudsters.
• When dealing with money you can't afford to lose, making sure to have solid contracts, references, reviews, background-checks, insurance, escrow, or whatever else is appropriate. And some concept of what you'd do if they take the money and run. (ex: Are you going to sue someone in Mexico from the states? Do they have assets?) Would you even have the time and motivation to sue?

 

[mcohen1021]

The part that makes no sense to me is how they were unwilling to issue a refund but willing to apply the money I paid to the roatan aggressor when my original payment was supposedly sent to the Siren....

 

[SlugLife]

Here are a couple interesting and informative videos I saw a couple days ago. They're a bit long, but I find them interesting and entertaining. The relevance of these videos is that most scams are rather vague, and bringing criminal charges or a lawsuit is often not worth the time or money.



In summary Dave hears about a fire-sale from a guy with a warehouse full of helicopter parts, and incomplete helicopters. Initially, the deal is $150k for everything in the building. "Art" the seller, spends the day showing Dave a bunch of helicopters, parts, tools, full shelves, etc. Art acts cool and friendly and high-energy, telling stories, etc. But at the end says the price is $300k, not $150k. A lot of the stuff is a bit disorganized, and Dave needs someone with real expertise, and Art asks Dave for a $30k to $40k deposit. Dave negotiates that down to $10k, says "I trust him" and flys home, and agrees to meet again on Monday.

Dave's crew shows up again on Monday, but now the warehouse looks very different. Shelves are empty, boxes moved around. Alarm bells go off for good reason, but if Dave can still lock down a specific inventory for a specific price, it might still be a killer deal. Today, art is completely different. Very aggressive and accusatory. Attempts to make a very clear deal about what is included, are obstructed with excessively long winded stories, flip-flopping, irrelevancies, aggressiveness, distractions about "personal property," and accusations of being "military and strict." Art then also tries to claim this deal is him doing Dave a favor, that it's a "Donation," and that Dave is the one being up-tight.

Then things get even weirder, because Art wants the agreement to be $300k for nothing, but then Art donates all of it. Furthermore, the money is supposed to go to some offshore military contractor. Art also refuses to let Dave change the locks and secure inventory. Dave leaves when the situation goes from BAD (which you see on video) to apparently much worse, to the point Dave looks really freaked out.

My comments: I've seen enough scammers in action to recognize it was a a likely scam in the first video. In the 2nd video, it was a blatant scam. Art was okay with either keeping the $10k, or with sticking Dave with a deal so bad, he'd be an idiot to accept. Some people say Art was on drugs, etc, which was the reason for the behavior change. IMO, he was on drugs in the first video, and the behavior change was one of his many various scam tactics to discourage Dave from having a clean cut deal.

Was this a scam from a legal perspective? It would be hard to bring criminal charges, and a lawsuit probably would be a waste of time. But Art is clearly a well practiced scammer, and I've interreacted with other scammers exactly like Art. Almost none of Art's behavior was a mistake.

 

[SlugLife]

The part that makes no sense to me is how they were unwilling to issue a refund but willing to apply the money I paid to the roatan aggressor when my original payment was supposedly sent to the Siren....

I guarantee they got their money back. If they didn't, they'd be absolute idiots and go bankrupt in zero time. They almost certainly have contractual guarantees, and some means of collecting.

It's a little shocking to me that so many people are (a) buying these excuses, and (b) thinking the excuses are actually reasonable.

 

[mcohen1021]

Exactly my point. I was born at night but not last night. Which is why I'll not use an agent again