So what do you do? - PADI QA

[wreckchick]

I'm also not sure where a name would be permitted to be posted by an instructor about a student here on the board, especially if it was a QA issue. If that was the case then I think reporting the post or alerting a mod would at least shut down that avenue of retaliation.

R

 

[scuba_drum]

Ok here is the scenario, condensed version...
Took DM class, with another DM candidate. We did EVERYTHING together, step by step. One of the clear violations (learned this later) was that we took all 8 tests together. Not necessarily open book, but we could use our notes and were left in a room by ourselves to finish the tests. We were told we could work together, said instructor thought it funny when he walked by and caught us debating a problem. Did all the swimming part UNSUPERVISED because instructor just had surgury. We went to a local pool that was 50yds, instructor told us to time each other. Found out later this is a no-no also. We did this to the highest standard, keeping times/scores exactly for the 400yd unassisted, the 800yd mask/snorkel/fins, and 15 minute tread water. Did my tired diver tow in pool on another date in pool with instructor and DM candidate friend, kept track of all my times. All other assignments did with other DM candidate present, sometimes with other witnesses. Was told our DM paperwork was submitted to PADI, never came. Went on a trip with LDS/instructor, from his recent surgury he was on really heavy meds, IMHO should not have been diving, leading a trip, or traveling at all, but not my call. Said instructor got in my face during this trip, in front of the entire group told me he was withholding my DM app, mostly because he said he told me to do something on this trip that he never told me in the first place. When we came back I attempted to email, then call about the situation. No answer so I went over to shop and when I asked him about it, telling him I wanted to call PADI, he threatened to call the police and literally threw me out of his shop. Keep in mind there was NO consultation, communication or anything of the sort about any possible problems regarding my DM. Nothing. Also, my progress was posted enthusiastically on SB with other DM candidates. End result? DM candidate friend gets DM card and I have nothing except a threat for small claims court and other possible "infractions or improprieties here on SB". These came as a direct result of the PADI investigation. My final reply from PADI QA says my only other option is to take my obviously reworked paperwork to another instructor and start over. Oh, btw, paid for class and materials up front, no doubt about that. On the paperwork that PADI did make said instructor give me, they are not the originals that came with my DM materials, all the 5's I recieved were marked out, and of course, marked down. Also, my waterskills part says "did not witness" so I got no score on any of them - keeping in mind the other DM candidate now has his card, and did NOT repeat any of them. His stand, mine do not.
Enough detail?
I got the short end....

 

[Melicertes]

I was thinking about this situation after I responded this morning and although I think it's been mentioned on here by others already I feel it is important to distinguish very clearly between the instructor/dive center who allegedly did not honor their side of the transaction, for whatever reason, and PADI as the certifying agency that represents the standards and procedures followed in a PADI sanctioned course offered by a dive training center/instructor.

Operators dealing in bad business practices and ethics are a reality but this unfortunately does not require PADI's intervention unless there were standards violated related to the training concepts and content during a course.

It sounds like this this is primarily a payment related issue and as such doesn't have anything to do with PADI because it's not training standards/safety related - your best recourse, assuming you are in fact still willing to attempt to resolve this amicably with the dive center/instructor, is to contact them in writing and suggest that you would like to meet with them in person and then discuss your grievances in a civil and respectful manner (assertiveness does not have to mean be bombastic or make a lot of noise) with the owner/instructor. Listen to what their gripes are and try to understand where they are coming from; do not interrupt until they are done talking, then make your argument calmly and respectfully. You will be much more likely to get a response that will hopefully move you toward a satisfactory solution. If this does not end satisfactorily for you then perhaps look at further legal action if you feel you absolutely have to invest more money and energy into getting the $$$ back but I suspect that you're most likely better off taking your business elsewhere rather than get stuck in a mud slinging match that will only leave both you and the center/instructor feeling bitter towards one another.
I hope you find some amicable resolution to this soon.

 

[wreckchick]

Do the assessments you have in your possession now exclude you from being able to file your paperwork? If they do not, you should be able to find an instructor to witness the swim tests and sign you off.

R

 

[String]

A few things here:

Ok here is the scenario, condensed version...
Took DM class, with another DM candidate. We did EVERYTHING together, step by step. One of the clear violations (learned this later) was that we took all 8 tests together. Not necessarily open book, but we could use our notes and were left in a room by ourselves to finish the tests. We were told we could work together, said instructor thought it funny when he walked by and caught us debating a problem.

One issue id have here is at DM level id expect and demand the student had a proper working knowledge of the instructor manual and the course there were taken so themselves should know what they can and cant do.
Yes the instructor shouldn't allow you to work together BUT on the other hand both of you were in the wrong and should have known what was and wasn't allowed.

Although its a standards breach it also invalidates your DM application and in itself could be seen as reason for no certification.

Did all the swimming part UNSUPERVISED because instructor just had surgury. We went to a local pool that was 50yds, instructor told us to time each other. Found out later this is a no-no also. We did this to the highest standard, keeping times/scores exactly for the 400yd unassisted, the 800yd mask/snorkel/fins, and 15 minute tread water.

Totally alone or was there a lifeguard present? Dont know about US law on this one so cant comment. In the UK it would be against HSE guidelines. Without checking my manual im not sure who can observe or assist the stadimna tests. Not 100% sure it has to be an instructor. Its not impossible another candidate could be used for verification but i'd need to check.

Again "found out later" doesnt wash with me. For a DM candidate you should KNOW and be able to find that information in the instructor manual.

Was told our DM paperwork was submitted to PADI, never came. Went on a trip with LDS/instructor, from his recent surgury he was on really heavy meds, IMHO should not have been diving, leading a trip, or traveling at all, but not my call.

Are you a medic? Did you ask to see proof of fitness to dive? You cant make any call or claim like that unless qualified to do so. Not all medication is a contraindication of diving.

Said instructor got in my face during this trip, in front of the entire group told me he was withholding my DM app, mostly because he said he told me to do something on this trip that he never told me in the first place.

This is where it becomes your word against his. It isnt a standards violation to be rude as such. If he said he was withholding it due to a skillset failure he's entitled to do that. What did he give as a reason?

When we came back I attempted to email, then call about the situation. No answer so I went over to shop and when I asked him about it, telling him I wanted to call PADI, he threatened to call the police and literally threw me out of his shop. Keep in mind there was NO consultation, communication or anything of the sort about any possible problems regarding my DM. Nothing.

Again not really a standards violation if it was for a skillset fail. You can however ask for your paperwork off the shop which they have to submit which should have a record of everything done and the scores.

Also, my progress was posted enthusiastically on SB with other DM candidates. End result? DM candidate friend gets DM card and I have nothing except a threat for small claims court and other possible "infractions or improprieties here on SB".

Again without getting his side of things its impossible to judge here. He could have withheld a card for reasons including failing to make scores, failing on a particular skill or even in the professional attitude and actions area and without knowing his reasoning its impossible to work out who is right and wrong in this.

my only other option is to take my obviously reworked paperwork to another instructor and start over.

That would seem sensible - its not starting over. It would be finishing the bits not completed or going over the bits failed.

On the paperwork that PADI did make said instructor give me, they are not the originals that came with my DM materials,

This bit is confusing - the DM paperwork you just print off the instructor manual - PADI dont send it so how can there be an "original"?

all the 5's I recieved were marked out, and of course, marked down. Also, my waterskills part says "did not witness" so I got no score on any of them

From what you stated above then that is 100% correct in which case no qualification can be awarded.

- keeping in mind the other DM candidate now has his card, and did NOT repeat any of them. His stand, mine do not.

The other guy may have got away with it but it doesnt really mean you can do.


From a purely course point of view above i see 2 reasons for not awarding the certification - firstly the theory is all invalid as it cant be guaranteed to be the students own work and secondly watership skills not witnessed. If that is ALL that is failed its half a days work with another instructor.

As i said though, id have expected a DM candidate to have a working knowledge of the instructor manual and the standards for the course they're actually doing so should know about the theory exams and supervision aspects etc.

Without hearing the instructors own explanation for withholding qualification nobody can conclude one way or another from these posts. Technically from what you admitted above you havent completed the course so cant be awarded it according to standards.
Whether the instructor breached standards as well is a totally separate issue from that.

EDIT:- To clarify my post which is way too long:

The assisted theory exams. Is this a breach of standards? YES if the instructor knew it wasn't the students own work
The unsupervised waterskills. Is this a breach? NO if the instructor put "NOT WITNESSED" on the form. If he had put "YES" it would have been.

Can the course be awarded ? No because the course requirements have not been met in these areas.

The awarding of your qualification and a possible standards breach by the instructor would be 2 totally separate things to deal with.

 

[Melicertes]

Ok here is the scenario, condensed version...
Took DM class, with another DM candidate. We did EVERYTHING together, step by step. One of the clear violations (learned this later) was that we took all 8 tests together. Not necessarily open book, but we could use our notes and were left in a room by ourselves to finish the tests. We were told we could work together, said instructor thought it funny when he walked by and caught us debating a problem. Did all the swimming part UNSUPERVISED because instructor just had surgury. We went to a local pool that was 50yds, instructor told us to time each other. Found out later this is a no-no also. We did this to the highest standard, keeping times/scores exactly for the 400yd unassisted, the 800yd mask/snorkel/fins, and 15 minute tread water. Did my tired diver tow in pool on another date in pool with instructor and DM candidate friend, kept track of all my times. All other assignments did with other DM candidate present, sometimes with other witnesses. Was told our DM paperwork was submitted to PADI, never came. Went on a trip with LDS/instructor, from his recent surgury he was on really heavy meds, IMHO should not have been diving, leading a trip, or traveling at all, but not my call. Said instructor got in my face during this trip, in front of the entire group told me he was withholding my DM app, mostly because he said he told me to do something on this trip that he never told me in the first place. When we came back I attempted to email, then call about the situation. No answer so I went over to shop and when I asked him about it, telling him I wanted to call PADI, he threatened to call the police and literally threw me out of his shop. Keep in mind there was NO consultation, communication or anything of the sort about any possible problems regarding my DM. Nothing. Also, my progress was posted enthusiastically on SB with other DM candidates. End result? DM candidate friend gets DM card and I have nothing except a threat for small claims court and other possible "infractions or improprieties here on SB". These came as a direct result of the PADI investigation. My final reply from PADI QA says my only other option is to take my obviously reworked paperwork to another instructor and start over. Oh, btw, paid for class and materials up front, no doubt about that. On the paperwork that PADI did make said instructor give me, they are not the originals that came with my DM materials, all the 5's I recieved were marked out, and of course, marked down. Also, my waterskills part says "did not witness" so I got no score on any of them - keeping in mind the other DM candidate now has his card, and did NOT repeat any of them. His stand, mine do not.
Enough detail?
I got the short end....

Ok, now we're getting the skinny on this (although there's still the dive center's/instructor's side and the truth that is missing here - remember there's always three sides to a story). This kind of makes my post of a few minutes ago obsolete since it does sound as if there were procedural issues that PADI should be concerned about. That being said, the QA process can only really be effective it your story can be corroborated by other students that completed the course with you and possibly students that received training from the instructor/center before in the past. You've done your civil duty in reporting this and in the end the bell will toll for them if the evidence supports it.

As for you and your current situation, I understand totally how you feel because I've been in a similar situation before. In the end your best approach is to still discuss this issue with the dive center directly - civilly and respectfully. Apologize if you got upset and threw a fit at them. Believe me I know what it means to see red and lose your nut in these situations - problem is it doesn't get you any closer to a resolution.

See if you cannot find a good compromise that leaves both you and the center happy, or at least satisfied. Suggest a solution or two you could see yourself being happy with and negotiate with them to structure something that works for them also. What if you opted to redo your DM course with them [edit: or the parts you're missing still] but with another instructor? You've got the materials so you don't need to buy it again. Also might also only have to pay in a smaller difference for the dive costs with them rather than going to another center and than paying a full fee all over again. DM is not supposed to be an easy course; it is not OW training anymore so you are bound to be under more pressure and stress - you're being honed to becoming a professional. Granted there are instructors out there that see themselves self-ordained to impart the hatred of hell in their students but look past that and get your training done - you will be most likely to get more out of it if you find a way to resolve this by creating some value in the situation (I understand you do not feel like it, but fake it if you have to).

Anyway, good luck and I hope you can get this sorted out. Just remember respectful and calmly can go a long way in these kind of situations.

 

[Melicertes]

I agree with Strings' reply above 100-and-10%. Nice post.

 

[DBailey]

This is AMAZING...the EXACT same thing happened on this thread:

WOW!!

Why the new thread?

 

[Colliam7]

Probably best to acknowledge up front that this may be more a matter of 'he said, she said', or 'he said, he said', than clear and unambiguous 'truth'. Not saying that your statements are anything other than entirely accurate and dispassionate, only that it is always difficult to draw conclsuions when there are two opposing viewpoints, without independant confirmation. Nonetheless, accepting your recounting as entirely accurate and reliable:

One of the clear violations (learned this later) was that we took all 8 tests together. Not necessarily open book, but we could use our notes and were left in a room by ourselves to finish the tests. We were told we could work together, said instructor thought it funny when he walked by and caught us debating a problem.

Not the way it is supposed to be but, ultimately, it is the INSTRUCTOR who verifies that standards were complied with.

Did all the swimming part UNSUPERVISED because instructor just had surgury. We went to a local pool that was 50yds, instructor told us to time each other. Found out later this is a no-no also.

Once again, not the way it is necessarily intended to be, but the INSTRUCTOR is responsible for administration of the DM curriculum, and for verifying that standards are met, NOT the DM candidate. And, BTW, you are NOT supposed to obtain the PADI Instructor Manual until AFTER you are a DM (the DM exam questions are part of it), so there is NO reason for you to know what the standards might be, based on familiarity with the IM.

All other assignments did with other DM candidate present, sometimes with other witnesses.

This may be an asset to you. Do they (the other DMC and the witnesses) concur with your view of events?

Was told our DM paperwork was submitted to PADI, never came.

If this is the case, you definitely have an issue of veracity on the part of the Instructor.

Went on a trip with LDS/instructor, from his recent surgury he was on really heavy meds, IMHO should not have been diving, leading a trip, or traveling at all, but not my call.

I disagree with Sting - this is your OPINION, and you are entitled to it. You even said it wasn't your call, just your opinion. Whether you are accurate or not is irrelevant.

Said instructor got in my face during this trip, in front of the entire group told me he was withholding my DM app, mostly because he said he told me to do something on this trip that he never told me in the first place.

So, I have to wonder, what is it that he asked you to do?

When we came back I attempted to email, then call about the situation. No answer so I went over to shop and when I asked him about it, telling him I wanted to call PADI, he threatened to call the police and literally threw me out of his shop.

So, the instructor is the owner of the LDS? If so, forget any attempt at reasonable compromise, or LDS arbitration.

Keep in mind there was NO consultation, communication or anything of the sort about any possible problems regarding my DM. Nothing. Also, my progress was posted enthusiastically on SB with other DM candidates.

Where, when and how? Maybe, I am misunderstanding your statement. But, your OP in this thread is listed as your first SB post. BTW, the detail is helpful. However, I suspect most will conclude, as I do, that this is not a PADI issue and you should not expect PADI (or any other certifying agency) to step in, beyond what they have already done. It is more a business dispute than a true standards issue. Having said that, don't get mad. Don't get even. get ahead.

 

[String]

And, BTW, you are NOT supposed to obtain the PADI Instructor Manual until AFTER you are a DM (the DM exam questions are part of it)

No they aren't. They are an entirely separate book.

, so there is NO reason for you to know what the standards might be, based on familiarity with the IM.

So i guess the exams that ask for information on ratios and standards are all just guess work then?