Slowly piecing together doubles?

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CuriousRambler

Contributor
Messages
570
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Location
Montana
# of dives
50 - 99
I'm heading slowly in the direction of technical diving, but I've got a long road to travel. For now I'm simply trying to gain as much experience in the water as possible, while slowly acquiring equipment to make the initial blast less painful when I reach an inevitable crossroads. Right now I'm diving a bp/w and al80's, but i would like to make the switch to steel tanks, both to drop some lead off my belt and slowly head into doubles. The issue I've got is that I picked up an LP72 that's out of hydro as part of a package deal, and I'm debating wether to get another and strap them together as doubles or just to sell the 72. A single LP 72 wouldn't be enough gas to last my "average" dive, or my buddy would have to cut his tanks short, I thought about diving the doubles with my friend on his 80's, but then I'd have to fill the doubles for each dive.

How do you usually handle having different size tanks from your buddy? Just call the dive when diver x runs out of air on his smaller tank? Force your buddy to get a different tank? haha

If I buy new tanks to start this process, what is a tank that works well for singles dives (I don't mind cutting my dive short if I'm on a higher capacity tank and he's on an al80..) and also fits well as a double rig? I was looking at HP80's, but I was warned that they're difficult to trim out when doubled up. I don't want or need anything huge, but I want roughly the volume of an al80 for the previously mentioned reasons..
 
Double LP72s can be a bit tough to trim out as well, depending on which ones they are. I'd say to shoot for LP80/LP85/HP100s. Any of those will give you the same or more air as an AL80 when you dive them as singles, and will make for great "smaller" doubles that trim out well (which I hear is a boon for tech classes) and still allow you to do two dives with single tank divers.

Btw, we used to do this with double LP72s as well, and depending on relative SAC rates, sometimes you end up being the one who needs to turn on pressure, but if your friends are diving ~80cuft tanks, it's definitely manageable.

I've also heard that HP80s are very difficult to trim out if you're taller than 5'3" or so. I don't think it would be a good idea to double those.
 
cheetah, if you're diving overheads (which i think for this would include deco, but don't quote me on that part), you 'tank match'. whoever has the smallest amount of gas takes 1/3 of their fill (so if he or she has 3000psi, he or she turns when they're at 2000) and the larger amount of gas person takes the same *amount of gas* (not the same psi). this way the smaller tank has a chance of getting both out. so in caves, huge tanks aren't really an advantage unless everyone has them. a hoover with larger tanks still might be the person turning the dive.
 
Well I've got almost a foot on 5'3", so it sounds like HP80's wouldn't be the way to go :p I've honestly got NO clue what I've got in this 72...It's old, original hydro is '73, and there aren't any markings that give away who made it (at least not to me, but I don't know what most markings mean anyway..)
 
I would say keep the 72 and use it as a deco/stage bottle once you go tec but I am pretty sure most tec divers use AL tanks for deco/stage.
 
Most of what I've seen for tech are using AL tanks for deco/stage - but obviously I'm not even in basic deco procedures, so I could very well be wrong. I'm thinking about hydroing it (last was 99..) and filling it up for a dive just to see how close I come to my buddy's turn around, because with both of us on al80's he's always the one to suck his tank low, I'll usually come up well over 1,000psi when he's under 700..
 
OK, if you are 6' 2-3" like myself, then No do not double up the 72's as you will not be happy with the trim. for guys our height you will be very happy with PST LP104's. As Singles they are good, but once you double them up and get the bands adjusted right, you will not need any additional weight, and you will be dead level in the water. Then save the 72's for deco/ stage bottles, and yes there are still alot of guys useing them.

They way I went about where you are is, I watched ebay, and found a guy selling two matching PST104's with matching H-valves. I jumped on them and got a great deal as they were just out of hydro. I dove them for almost a year as singles... Then I bought my buddy's OMS doubles. I did not like the way they trimmed out, so... I broke them down and used the manifold and bands on the 104's and put the H-valves on the OMS's. Granted I could have just added the bands and isolator and have been in business, but now I still have tanks to dive singles :wink: ( and he made me a heck of a deal :wink:
 
I have both HP 100's and Steel 72's set up as doubles.

They both have the same internal volume and consequently the same tank factor (ie: how many cu ft they hold per 100 psi., which we'll over later)

Trim wise I find little difference between the HP 100's and the steel 72's but the qualifyer is that steel 72 vary a bit between manufacturer and some are heavier and trim differently than others. Heights and shoulder profiles also vary so they can be a challenge to match.

Volume wise, a steel 72 overfilled about 400 psi to 2670 psi holds as much as an AL 80 at 3000 psi. More importantly, an AL 80 filled to 2800 psi (a common hot filled AL 80 pressure) holds 71.8 cu ft. - almost identical to the 71.2 that a steel 72 holds at the plus rated pressure of 2475 psi. In short a plus filled steel 72 holds the same gas as a slightly short filled AL 80 and there is just not that much difference between them.

________


For technical diving gas matching becomes important.

To determine a tank factor, take the volume of the tank divided by the pressure and then multiply it by 100. For an AL 80 that holds 77 cu ft at 3000 psi: 77/3000= .02567x100= 2.57 (rounded to a tank factor of 2.6)

For a steel 72 this works out to 2.88 cu ft per 100 psi and a rounded tank factor of 2.9. If you double the tanks you also double the tank factors so a set of double AL 80's would have a tank factor of 5.2 while a set of steel 72's would have a tank factor of 5.8. The tank factor just makes the mental math easier when gas matching.

For overhead diving it is common to plan to turn the dive on thirds (in some cases you'd turn more conservatively on 1/4's or 1/6ths) and to do this with different sized tanks in the buddy team you need to consider the smallest set of tanks in the group.

If you had 2400 psi in the steel 72, 1/3 is 800 psi. If you take 8 times 5.8 you get 46 cu ft.

In the larger double Al 80's, you take the same 46 cu ft and divide it by the tank factor of 5.2 to get 885 psi. You'd add some conservatism by rounding that down to 800 psi to get your turn pressure. However, mentally it is easier to figure it backwards by trying 8 or 9, etc times 5.2. For example: 9x5=45 plus 9x.2 = 1.8, 46.8 total (a bit more than 46) and 8 times 5.2, 8x5=40 plus 8x.2=1.6, 41.6 total (a bit less than 46). In practice 9 is ball park close enough as the missing 15 psi is going to get lost in the noise of SPG accuracy anyway.

So...the Al 80's start at 3000 psi and the diver will turn at 2100 psi (or 2200 psi if you round down to 800) giving up only 100 psi compared to an actual third in the AL 80. Which makes the point that the difference between an Al 80 and a Steel 72 is pretty minimal even when doubled -as long as the Steel 72 is not short filled.

The difference gets bigger with larger differences in tank volumes.

For example, an HP 100 holds 100 cu ft at 3442 psi compared to the steel 72's 71.2 cu ft at 2475 psi. Both have the same tank factor of 5.8 when doubled but the starting pressures differ greatly. If the Steel 72s are filled to 2400, you'd have the same 46 cu ft third which would be about 800 psi in the HP 100's (roughly 6x8=48 - easy to do in your head floating on the surface prior to the dive). So if your HP 100's are filled to 3600 psi (a common fill pressure for HP 100's) you'd be giving up 400 psi compared to your normal 1/3rd turn pressure (turn at 2800 psi rather than 2400 psi).

If the steel 72's were filled to only 2200 psi you'd round down to 2100 (first 100 psi increment evenly divisible by 3) and figure a 700 psi third. 7 times the 5.8 tank factor is 40.6 cu ft, and again 40 divided by the HP 100 tank factor of 5.8 in your head is about 700 psi (actually 700 exactly if you work out the math) so the diver with the larger double 100 cu ft tanks filled to 3600 psi would turn at 2900 psi rather than 2400 psi, giving up 500 psi and almost 30 cu ft. compared to the normal 2400 psi turn pressure. A third diver with double AL 80's filled to 3000 psi would use the same 40.6 cu ft third and divide it by his tank factor of 5.2 to get a turn pressure 700 psi below the fill pressure (since 8x5.2 is 1.6 cu ft too big of a third). In this case the double AL 80 diver will be giving up 300 psi and about 15 cu ft compared to the normal 1/3rd turn pressure. In the extreme, if a 4th diver had LP 104's (tank factor of 8.0 when doubled) cave filled to 3600 psi (288 cu ft of gas), he would still turn on the same 40.6 cu ft "third" and would turn at 3100 psi rather than 2400 psi and would be giving up 700 psi and 56 cu ft. compared to his normal third.

The idea is that if everyone figures thirds based on the smallest tank, everyone will turn on the same volume of gas and, if needed, could get out of the overhead breathing the reserve third in those smallest tanks. The bad news is that the guys with the larger tanks don't see any advantage to having them. In the real world, diving the same sized tanks with buddies with similar SAC rates allows everyone to take full advantage of larger tank volumes - but it is important to note this poentially has the effect of actually lowering the overall reserve of gas in a multi member team.

So in effect, it is often peer pressure that drives the selection of a larger tank, since divers with smaller tanks tend to be less popular with the divers hauling around larger tanks, particularly if the goal is longer dives or penetrations.

____

Steel 72's really suck as stage bottles - they just do not ride as well as an AL 80.
 
FYI...

When I first got into technical diving I had a set of AL 90's I put together. I figured that the extra 20 cuft I got by using the 90's was a good thing, the more gas you have the better right. Besides I already had one 90 cuft tank so it was cheaper to just buy another one and put them together then to buy another 2 tanks. I found out pretty quick that even 180 cuft of gas wasn't nearly enough to keep up with folks diving LP 95's and LP 108's. I was always the one turning the dive. Most of the tech divers down here get "cave fills" in their LP tanks so they always had way more gas then I did. I only made a few dives on the AL 90's before I bought a set of LP 108's myself and with a good cave fill I had 240 cuft of gas which allowed me to keep up with the rest of the group and not call the dive early.

IMO don't waste your money on the 72's, they're not big enough and you'll just end up buying a set of larger steel tanks anyway. Stick with LP tanks as the trim and buoyancy swing from full to empty is much better then AL or HP steels and, if you're in the right part of the country, you can get a cave fill and you'll have even more gas. And when it comes to breathing gas more is always better. And don't use steel tanks for stages or deco bottles. By the time you strap on double steel tanks, an AL backplate, reels, lights and two stages you're already so negative that you don't want to be adding any more weight then necessary. Besides AL tanks will float more streamlined when you sling or side mount them then steel tanks.
 
Aquamaster, I read the whole post, and I won't lie - you COMPLETELY lost me on the math...Maybe it's because I met up with a friend tonight and I've had a bit to drink, but I had no idea where half those numbers were coming from haha. I started to understand where you were going in the last couple of paragraphs though, haha.

Either way, it's sounding like the 72's won't fit me very well in almost any application..I'm thinking of giving the one I have a shot as a single tank, possibly drop some lead, but beyond that I should start looking into LP85s or LP95s to use as doubles? I'm pretty sure the shop I go to has LP95's on sale for 213 or something..Maybe I'll have to dump a piece of this paycheck on one this weekend..
 
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