Question Skipping 1st stage Maintenance?

[Imla]

Well it’s now 4 weeks since my last dive trip but IIRC the cracking pressure and W.O.B was too high almost like there was some kind of blockage. The air was too thin… and for some reason I was dissatisfied even after turning the knob all the way and when I did it free-flowed rather easily. But my recollection is vague now as after the first two days of diving I switched to the C370 as the primary for the next 10 days - which was relatively unused till now (only 14 dives) and its a beauty of a reg!

Question... Were they so "easygoing" that they almost free-flowed and you still felt "short of breath"/"that it didn't deliver enough air"?

How was the dive? Level of "work"? Was there a possibility of CO2 build-up? Could it be an effect of CO2 retention and not so much a malfunction in the regs?

Just a thought....

 

[Bigbella]

I only do about 50 dives a year max typically with approx 20 days actually in the water. And I don’t trust myself to simply do a one day course and service my own regs when my life depends on it. The one thing I know from my own competencies in other domains is that it takes a hell lot of repeat practice to be good at something.

Skipping regulator maintenance, either stage, and just hoping for the best, is never a good idea -- and only increases the chance of an ignominious entry into the "Accidents, Incidents, & Near Misses" forum; and none of us wish to be a recipient of that booby prize.

Even though you stated that the regulators were seldom used, the method of equipment storage is as important if not more so than the degree of usage. Corrosion is king in the off-season, just judging from the salt-lick messes that I've seen, pulled from hall closets, for Spring or Summer rebuilds.

I hate to tell you, but those single day courses that concerned you -- those scant few hours at a Marriott conference room; or, some recently held online, since the covidiocy -- are typical of the dive industry, and of the breadth of formal training that shop techs now receive from the sport itself, to futz with and maintain life support equipment.

On the other hand, resident expert @rsingler, through Napa Scuba LLC, offers a demanding two or three day online course, a few times a year, the likes of which I have never seen, in terms of exhaustive theory, application, and mechanics (there's even some book-learnin' involved). Even if you never desired to service your own gear, it could offer the prospective diver far more consumer confidence in the handling, maintenance, and maybe encourage some minor adjustments of his or her own equipment.

You'd never again go into the local dive shop as a lamb to slaughter:



Having attended standard manufacturer's courses over the years, I was stunned that a written test and testing on a bench was no longer required, to receive a certificate or recertification -- that, after boning up the previous night, at a no-tell motel, on various funky assembly steps, settings and protocols, over rotgut takeout Chinese -- just to watch the instructor, a nice guy, wearily tune a single regulator (though we had assembled three), over a small overhead projector from across the room, his back to most of us.

He could have been making balloon animals for all we knew.

For that matter, your life could well hinge upon the likes of the teenage punk, who sat next to me that day, and whose most memorable accomplishment, aside from immediately losing o-rings on the carpet, had been to royally prong his thumb with a tiny Wiha screwdriver and bleed like a stuck saint . . .

 

[MidOH]

Regs, especially piston regs, ain't exactly rocket science.

Very simple machines.

 

[rhwestfall]

 

[MidOH]

Looks like an Apeks.

 

[Pearlman]

Question... Were they so "easygoing" that they almost free-flowed and you still felt "short of breath"/"that it didn't deliver enough air"?

How was the dive? Level of "work"? Was there a possibility of CO2 build-up? Could it be an effect of CO2 retention and not so much a malfunction in the regs?

Just a thought....

My recollection is vague since I did the rest of the diving days with another reg - all I remember is that they free-flowed when I tuned them for the easiest breathing the few times I took them regs out of the mouth, and even with the tuning the air was too thin and I knew instinctively it would be a panic multiplier for both the already panicked OOA receiver and for me with my backup reg also not delivering good amounts of air in the first few breaths until I adjusted myself mentally (which is unlikely to happen in a panic situation)

Even though you stated that the regulators were seldom used, the method of equipment storage is as important if not more so than the degree of usage. Corrosion is king in the off-season, just judging from the salt-lick messes that I've seen, pulled from hall closets, for Spring or Summer rebuilds.

I hate to tell you, but those single day courses that concerned you -- those scant few hours at a Marriott conference room; or, some recently held online, since the covidiocy -- are typical of the dive industry, and of the breadth of formal training that shop techs now receive from the sport itself, to futz with and maintain life support equipment.

I don’t disagree! I started this thread out of an original concern for “excessive maintenance” as described earlier in this thread.

I am trying real hard to maintain my gear in good condition otherwise. To illustrate, how many of you would pay the extra hotel room charges on a vacation for a person who never talks to you? Imagine you can never have a conversation with that person and you derive no emotional satisfaction from him/her in your daily life? On my last trip I stayed back an extra day and booked an extra night before my outbound flight to give my gear an additional soak and rinse. Not only that - I paid double my regular hotel budget to book an entire apartment with a bathtub and a mini terrace to dry my gear all day! That’s the equivalent of 2 additional vacation days for me! Proof in the pics attached…

(FYI - I did that at a great expense because my home apartment has excessively hard groundwater supply with salts in it that leaves stains on drying kitchen vessels and bathroom taps…)

As to why I did it… Well… My gear talks to me… they are my emotional support “pets” on my dives… knowing I have them in my cupboard stashed away and ready to be packed for a dive trip rather than depend on a dive shops rental gear comforts me…

Am I being “Penny-wise and Pound-foolish” about it? All I can say in my defence is that I started this thread out of a sense of caution and hence sought out your opinions and advice.

Regarding the course I think it is a multi-day Scubapro Official Level-1 technician course. I will receive the schedule on Tuesday then I will know.

 

[admikar]

My recollection is vague since I did the rest of the diving days with another reg - all I remember is that they free-flowed when I tuned them for the easiest breathing the few times I took them regs out of the mouth, and even with the tuning the air was too thin and I knew instinctively it would be a panic multiplier for both the already panicked OOA receiver and for me with my backup reg also not delivering good amounts of air in the first few breaths until I adjusted myself mentally (which is unlikely to happen in a panic situation)



I don’t disagree! I started this thread out of an original concern for “excessive maintenance” as described earlier in this thread.

I am trying real hard to maintain my gear in good condition otherwise. To illustrate, how many of you would pay the extra hotel room charges on a vacation for a person who never talks to you? Imagine you can never have a conversation with that person and you derive no emotional satisfaction from him/her in your daily life? On my last trip I stayed back an extra day and booked an extra night before my outbound flight to give my gear an additional soak and rinse. Not only that - I paid double my regular hotel budget to book an entire apartment with a bathtub and a mini terrace to dry my gear all day! That’s the equivalent of 2 additional vacation days for me! Proof in the pics attached…

(FYI - I did that at a great expense because my home apartment has excessively hard groundwater supply with salts in it that leaves stains on drying kitchen vessels and bathroom taps…)

As to why I did it… Well… My gear talks to me… they are my emotional support “pets” on my dives… knowing I have them in my cupboard stashed away and ready to be packed for a dive trip rather than depend on a dive shops rental gear comforts me…

Am I being “Penny-wise and Pound-foolish” about it? All I can say in my defence is that I started this thread out of a sense of caution and hence sought out your opinions and advice.

Regarding the course I think it is a multi-day Scubapro Official Level-1 technician course. I will receive the schedule on Tuesday then I will know.

By any means, get the training. But don't get scared. As said before, it ain't rocket science. It also ain't tune it to the nearest possible level or you'll die.
My regs are all hot tuned. None will pass factory check. Done some numbers of dives on them tuned like that.
My course was one day (2x4 hours blocks) where we received explanation of all the different parts, disassembled, assembled and tuned them ourselves while being watched by mutliple trainers. We were all successful to factory standards. After that it was explained to us how and why to hot/detune if needed. It gave me enough knowledge to tune my regs the way I like it.
As for corosion, these still held IP just fine. It ain't a blink and you'll die moment.

 

[Pearlman]

An Update -
So the bad 2nd stage reg I complained about in an earlier post has a prime suspect - A new 3rd party comfo mouthpiece I got just before the diving started. It has a thin and loose flap cover (attached only on one side) where the open oval hole of the mouthpiece usually is that I neglected to cut off before installing. It took just a glance from the trainer to look at the reg and he pointed out the flap as a source of the issue. And so I tested it with the mouthpiece removed from the reg and sucking in open air from it - and Ugh! He was right! The flap tends to get stuck before opening suddenly with a flick and even then the airflow was a bit anaemic for the amount I was sucking on it! . I thought the flap was so thin and loose it would be no problem passing pressurised air through it but I was wrong!

And yes, I did 4 days of full-time hands-on classroom training and did the L1 & L2 certification. In the L2 classroom training session I got the opportunity to take apart and reassemble all my regs (mk19/25 evo s600 & c370) so now I am reasonably confident I can do it by myself.

Now I am shopping for the tools needed to DIY my reg maintenance. I had some questions around a few tools

1. The in-line adjuster tool for 2nd stage - There is an option for attaching a mini IPG inline with it - what is the benefit of that? In my training classroom we didn’t have it and didn’t miss it either. Yes I have been advised in other recent threads as well that the reg can be tuned without it by disconnecting (and blowing air through the inlet while tuning - great tip!) but I like the convenience of listening to the hiss go away as I turn the dial on the adjuster …

1. Is there any advantage to going digital for both Differential Pressure Gauge and IP Gauge for a workbench? On the side - I plan to get the Dwyer analog Magnahelic cheaper locally and DIY a wooden frame and stand for both the dials like in a workshop. The IPG unfortunately I will procure from the US scuba-tools store at extra expense, as the local ones don’t have red marking from 125-150 psi - And I want the whole bling for my new hobby.

A non-technical query - I see that the PDF catalog on the Scuba-tools site has cheaper prices than the web pages that add to shopping cart - typically 2-3$ per item. Is that the local sales tax being levied? Is it customary to apply US local sales tax to International shipments or can I hope for tax-free pricing? I emailed the store last Thursday but got no reply presumably because of the Easter weekend. When I shop from EU stores online, I get VAT-free pricing once I enter my address and the shopping cart has updated the shipping amount.

Thanks for your inputs as always! You folks on Scubaboard are my inspiration for my new learning spree and newfound knowledge acquisition venture.

 

[Bigbella]

An Update -
So the bad 2nd stage reg I complained about in an earlier post has a prime suspect - A new 3rd party comfo mouthpiece I got just before the diving started. It has a thin and loose flap cover (attached only on one side) where the open oval hole of the mouthpiece usually is that I neglected to cut off before installing. It took just a glance from the trainer to look at the reg and he pointed out the flap as a source of the issue. And so I tested it with the mouthpiece removed from the reg and sucking in open air from it - and Ugh! He was right! The flap tends to get stuck before opening suddenly with a flick and even then the airflow was a bit anaemic for the amount I was sucking on it! . I thought the flap was so thin and loose it would be no problem passing pressurised air through it but I was wrong!
View attachment 834444View attachment 834449

And yes, I did 4 days of full-time hands-on classroom training and did the L2 certification. In the L2 classroom training session I got the opportunity to take apart and reassemble all my regs (mk19/25 evo s600 & c370) so now I am reasonably confident I can do it by myself.
View attachment 834446

Now I am shopping for the tools needed to DIY my reg maintenance. I had some questions around a few tools

1. The in-line adjuster tool for 2nd stage - There is an option for attaching a mini IPG inline with it - what is the benefit of that? In my training classroom we didn’t have it and didn’t miss it either. Yes I have been advised in other recent threads as well that the reg can be tuned without it by disconnecting (and blowing air through the inlet while tuning - great tip!) but I like the convenience of listening to the hiss go away as I turn the dial on the adjuster …

View attachment 834448

1. Is there any advantage to going digital for both Differential Pressure Gauge and IP Gauge for a workbench? On the side - I plan to get the Dwyer analog Magnahelic cheaper locally and DIY a wooden frame and stand for both the dials like in a workshop. The IPG unfortunately I will procure from the US scuba-tools store at extra expense, as the local ones don’t have red marking from 125-150 psi - And I want the whole bling for my new hobby.

A non-technical query - I see that the PDF catalog on the Scuba-tools site has cheaper prices than the web pages that add to shopping cart - typically 2-3$ per item. Is that the local sales tax being levied? Is it customary to apply US local sales tax to International shipments or can I hope for tax-free pricing? I emailed the store last Thursday but got no reply presumably because of the Easter weekend. When I shop from EU stores online, I get VAT-free pricing once I enter my address and the shopping cart has updated the shipping amount.

Thanks for your inputs as always! You folks on Scubaboard are my inspiration for my new learning spree and newfound knowledge acquisition venture.

Congratulations on the class -- you'll never look back, or buy whatever crock your local dive shop says at face value.

That gauge for the inline tuning is simply a convenience; though I do like it. Before that, I just had an IP gauge on hand, attached to an LP inflator hose, which did much the same.

Going digital is up for debate, since they can also be as inaccurate as analogue gauges, despite those bright, shiny numbers; though I would still insist upon analog for the Magnehelic gauge, so you could visually register the arc of the swing, during adjustments, rather than just abstract rising and falling numbers, in a fiddly, expensive device.

So far, though, my other digital equipment -- one of my IP gauges -- jibes with the analogue oldies; though, for better or worse, has me a bit more granular in settings than I had ever been before.

Should I have really been concerned with a reading of 11.55 bar, over that of 11.5 on a decades-old Cyklon?

Nah.

As far as Scuba-Tools is concerned, you shouldn't be paying any US taxes, and should really contact them again (a real "Mom and Pop" set-up from what I have been told), since their site is a bit on the, eh, spare side, and may not be well geared for international sales . . .

 

[Pearlman]

Congratulations on the class -- you'll never look back, or buy whatever crock your local dive shop says at face value.

That gauge for the inline tuning is simply a convenience; though I do like it. Before that, I just had an IP gauge on hand, attached to an LP inflator hose, which did much the same.

… though I would still insist upon analog for the Magnehelic, so you could visually register the swing, during second stage adjustments, rather than just abstract rising and falling of numbers

So far, my other digital equipment jibes with the analogue oldies.

As far as Scuba-Tools is concerned, you shouldn't be paying any US taxes, and should really contact them again (a Mom and Pop set-up from what I have been told), since their site is a bit on the, eh, spare side, and may not be well geared for international sales . . .

Thanks! Doing the training course(s) has increased my appetite for more and I am really looking forwards to the journey of learning and understanding various components of SCUBA gear in more nitty-gritty details and finding that sense of grip over my own personal safety by maintaining their state and performance…

Regarding the inline IPG - There is of course going to that other big IPG positioned right next to the Magnahelic to eyeball the drop in IP as the Magnahelic needle swings around the cracking pressure - so that’s the reason I am wondering what specific use the additional smaller inline IPG will have on the inline adjuster.

From my online research I found that one simply has to unplug the HP and LP ports on the analog Magnahelic and turn a screw exposed on the dial at the base of the needle - to reset it back to 0 for calibration, while the digital version has a sensor one cannot fiddle with - or can we? Is there a reset button for it?

Incidentally I’m having to order all my requirements from three different online stores because none of them have everything I need.