Simple question about removing backup regulator

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Personally, I think that Submersible Systems recommending their 3.0 CU FT product for dives up to 99 feet is borderline criminal.................

When airbags first came out, Chrysler and Mercedes ran ads, about folks who walked away from bad crashes without wearing their seatbelts due to the airbags..........this made people think that seat belts were not needed if you had airbags............both the car manufactures learned the hard way in court...........$$$$$$$$...........

M
 
Kudos on your last post...........

Made me smile..............:)

M
 
It's a good thing we have spare air, without it there would be one less dead horse to beat mercilessly.

Really, you should do a search, although I see that you've decided to go for a pony already, so it doesn't matter. It's clear that carrying a spare air increases your risk. First, it has already allowed you to dive in a dangerous situation, which I assume you other wise would not have. Second, it can give you a very false sense of security and create a secondary emergency. Third, it is allowing you to avoid solving the basic problem which is, why are you concerned about going OOA? That's the real issue, and it should be solved through dive training and behavior, not equipment.
 
Third, it is allowing you to avoid solving the basic problem which is, why are you concerned about going OOA? That's the real issue, and it should be solved through dive training and behavior, not equipment.

What?! sorry, but that is bad sounds like bad advice. If this were true, then with proper training and behavior I wouldn't need any backup air at all. I will never have enough faith in my equipment to do that.
 
It's a good thing we have spare air, without it there would be one less dead horse to beat mercilessly.

Really, you should do a search, although I see that you've decided to go for a pony already, so it doesn't matter. It's clear that carrying a spare air increases your risk. First, it has already allowed you to dive in a dangerous situation, which I assume you other wise would not have. Second, it can give you a very false sense of security and create a secondary emergency. Third, it is allowing you to avoid solving the basic problem which is, why are you concerned about going OOA? That's the real issue, and it should be solved through dive training and behavior, not equipment.


What?! sorry, but that is bad sounds like bad advice. If this were true, then with proper training and behavior I wouldn't need any backup air at all. I will never have enough faith in my equipment to do that.

Hi mcavana: This is a long answer and more appropriate for the "Solo" section of this board, but here goes: Re-read what mattboy posted carefully. He's right.

What can happen in all areas of diving is that additional equipment is often used to solve what is really a skills problem, or to solve a perceived risk. Using equipment in this fashion actually increases the risk because the diver feels more confident than is warranted, gets in over his/her head, then discovers the added "safety equipment" / "redundancy" will not get them out of the situation.

Your question about removing your backup regulator and using a 3.0 cu foot Spare Air as a bailout bottle on a 100 foot dive is a case in point. To your credit you correctly identified a potential risk (diving to 100 feet without a redundant air source such as a buddy) and tried to compensate for it, but incorrectly proposed an inappropriate gear solution that would actually increase your risk.

Your risk is increased in this case because you would feel "safe" using the Spare Air and go ahead with the 100 foot solo dive ... but in reality 3.0 cu ft is inadequate to get you to the surface at a stressed breathing rate, you'd more than likely run out 1/2 way up, then you'd bolt the rest of the way, and that could kill you.

If you know, in advance, what the limitations of 3.0 cu feet of air impose on you, then you can make a good decision on what depth it would be useful from.

The answer, at least for me: The 3.0 cu ft is not sufficient for any depth. It is an expensive paperweight. From a depth shallow enough to be useful from, redundancy is generally not required. It does not provide enough air to get you out of an entanglement, or to otherwise problem solve underwater.

Well-maintained scuba equipment is remarkably reliable. Failures do occur, but are rare. The vast majority of OOA's are not equipment related: they are due to operator error. Failure to plan gas consumption, failure to monitor gas consumption, or a failure to understand gas consumption in the first place. Thus the vast majority of OOA's are a "skill's issue" and not an equipment failure.

You do need to evaluate your own skill level, the environment, and dive plan. I solo dive with exactly the same gear configuration as I buddy dive with. I do not carry a pony. But I dive in a very benign environment (warm, good viz, very low entanglement risk). I stay shallow enough (20-50 feet) that the atmosphere is my "Spare Air" :D If I were diving cold water & lower viz I'd be using a very different config, possibly doubles. I do have a 30 cu foot "pony" I can sling for the occasional deeper dive... but this is for buddy dives, not solo. If I carry it on solo dives I'm using it as a small "stage bottle" to extend dive time a bit so I can explore a little further. It becomes part of my gas planning and not a bailout bottle.

My personal "comfort level": If the dive I want to do is deep enough to really require redundancy, then I want that redundancy to be in the form of a good buddy, not just a piece of equipment. I will not do a solo dive that I could not swim myself up from on a single breath.

Best wishes.
 
Interesting thread.... when I first starting seriously diving and wanted a "spare air" or pony bottle, I started with a 19 cu. ft. bottle with a sling after doing some research. For mounting purposes while those little pony brackets are neat, I ended up slinging under my arm. Eventually I sold it and started using a 40 cu.ft. bottle when I knew I was headed down the technical diving route.

So I'd be looking at the 19 cu.ft. bottle over the 13 cu.ft. bottle even. :)
 
Yes, this thread brings three unique issues together..........that what makes it a great thread..............

First Spare Air......which I think we are in consensus is worthless for anything......

Second.....buying gear that can evolve with you.........just as you mentioned buying a 19 CF pony but now using a 40 CF as you head into technical diving......only the OP can determine this.......many on this board are die hard advanced divers, so they always look to the future (not a bad thing if that is the route you take)......so you see the BP/W, long hose, can light, SS spring straps, etc diver on a Caribbean 30 foot reef dive.....and they are very passionate about their setup (for good reasons) but just overkill for many divers IMHO.......

Yes........I am wearing my titanium flame-proof underwear.....:)

Finally......solo diving........here we have something that is very controversial....

I don't do it, DIR guys don't do it.....some agencies certify it......

I have a pony as I often dive with instabuddies and frankly just don't know them well enough to be 100% confident that they will be there if needed......so I carry a 19 CF pony, 3 cutting devices (knife, shears and line cutter), 2 lights, DSMB w/spool, whistle and air horn. For deeper colder dives I switch to my doubles........but still always buddy dive......

It is a fine line between self sufficiency (a good thing) and being truly solo (a bad thing, again IMHO)..................

To his credit the OP asked questions and listened to input, if he chooses to continue solo diving then a 13 CF or 19 CF pony is much better than a Spare Air..........

If he does solo dive a 40 CF or even an AL 80 would be even better......:)

Along with more gear and training.............

Just my thoughts............M
 
What?! sorry, but that is bad sounds like bad advice. If this were true, then with proper training and behavior I wouldn't need any backup air at all. I will never have enough faith in my equipment to do that.

I think you're misunderstanding what he's said.

First you need to evaluate if this is a issue that requires a gear solution.

I have a pony bottle for a very specific reason, I plan to to Recreational Wreck Penetration. here are some of the additional risks I will face:

Overhead Environments
Increased Change of Entrapment
Limited Access (buddy can't get close enough to share air)
Deeper Dive Profiles (diving 100 - 130 ft to get to the good wrecks)

All of these mean that I run a greater chance of running out of gas at depth if something goes wrong.

How can I solve this without gear? Choose to not get into wreck diving isn't an option for me and I can't grow gills so this does become a gear solution in my case.

The gear solution is actually more complex than just "Get a Pony Bottle".

First, address the Wreck Environment. Always carry 2 reels, tie-off outside the wreck and don't exceed lesser of the length of the line, total deep + Penetration of 130 ft or beyond the limit of light penetration into the wreck.

Second, address increased risk of OOG. For this I'm changing from AL80 cylinders to Steel HP120 cylinders. Additionally I'm making the Regulator/Cylinder connection more secure and able to safely handle the HP cylinders by converting my First Stage connector to 300bar DIN.

Third, address the redundant air supply. For me that means a 30cuft Pony Bottle mounted on my main Cylinder.

Of course there is more like 2 dive lights etc....

But it's not that simple, there is a none gear portion of the solution:

I'm taking Wreck Diving Specialty and Deep Diver Specialty and I will be making my entry into this exciting new world with divers more experienced than myself.

Even this isn't a complete list of everything I am and should do but it's a good start.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

Back
Top Bottom