Sign the waiver....Don't sign the waiver ....??

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RICHinNC

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Location
RAEFORD. NC
As I was sitting here in front of my pc this wonderful Saturday morning....putting off the inevitable two acre grass cutting chore.....I found a thread that caused my warped mind to wonder.

There is a thread on here that the guy asks does anyone know of a dive operation in a specific area that allows you to "wander off" on your own and not give you a hard time about it.

I have been on boat dives where if you didnt keep up....or wandered off on your own... you got "spoken to" once back on the boat.

But, before I ever got on a boat I had to sign a waiver saying I am responsible for my actions and they ....the dive ops....has no responsibility at all should anything happen to me.

That got me wondering, if I have to sign a waiver ....and if I have to follow the leader....then I am not doing what I would normally do...I am doing what THEY want me to do....and how can THEY absolve themselves of all responsibility??

Pls dont make this into a solo dive thread or legal mumbo jumbo thread....it was just a thought.

Now to go cut the grass.
 
If you don't sign the waiver you're not going out on their boat.

I am not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and haven't stayed at a Holdiay Inn Express lately, but all waivers were not created equally. If the waiver is worded correctly and designed for the specific state, they are pretty hard to beat. But that doesn't absolve them of ALL responsibility. They can't intentionally or knowingly harm you. Laws still apply. Lawyers punch through waivers all the time.

And companies that just grab a generic waiver off the internet somewhere might find it's completely worthless in their area.

But what you are getting at is that by laying down rules and procedures they are assuming responsibility. I don't think that's true because there are always rules. Signing a waiver doesn't mean you can do anything you want. ou can't waterski behind the boat on the way out or do a ten hour technical dive on a 4 hour trip. You are also agreeing to abide by the rules and policies of the boat. This isn't just for your safety but for the safety and convenience of the others on the boat.
 
If they wont let you dive if you dont sign it. then i guess if you wnat to dive bad enough you'll sign it.

besides you signed one for class too..

Not sure but you signing it but I think it does not totally absolve them. Depending on local laws I am sure.

IMHO - Sign it & go dive..... If you want to go dive alone then grab some gear go to a local lake or shore and jump in, no waiver required. no scuba cop is going to give you a ticket. And ultimatley you are responsible for yourself.. But if I get assigned to you on a boat and you try to ditch me.. I'll be having a few words of my own.

/end 2 cents
 
I always use my judgement over theirs. I'll follow but, for instance, I won't follow them into a cave. If they mention the cave in the dive brief, I tell them (as nicely as I can) that I don't feel comfortable in overhead environments and that I'll either skip the dive or wait for them at the mouth of the cave. Most dive ops understand.

I had this happen, recently, and the dive op was okay. They asked me, again, to go in once we got there and I waved them off. I aplogized when we all got back to the boat but they were super cool about it.

The way I look at it, though, is that your safety is your job and it should be your primary job.
 
If you follow so close that the DM can't see, they may ask you to swim alone. Try it and let me know how it works.
 
I'm not a lawyer..... In the United States you cannot sign away your rights. In the United States a dive operator cannot obsolve themselves of responsibilty by requiring you to sign their waiver.

Waiver's do have a value in the court system and by signing one have agreed to follow their rules so if you do not follow them you have put yourself in a dubious position in the eyes of the law as well as in the eyes of a jury.

Basically, if you don't minding the scolding or a deminished legal position then wonder off on you own if you want to.

Outside the US... big risk if the worst were to happen???
 
INteresting answers...hopefully the guy that did the other thread will read this one.

As for ME....I dont mind signing a waiver as I fully understand that they really are worthless IF the dive ops conducts themselves inproperly. And, I too dont dummy dive and do everything they want. If I am not comfortable going into a wreck...not being wreck certified...then I too will stay out side and check out the local life until they come back out.

I just thought it was interesting how the guy felt about the waiver, diving his personal way and so on. Look around...you will find the thread.
 
RICHinNC:
There is a thread on here that the guy asks does anyone know of a dive operation in a specific area that allows you to "wander off" on your own and not give you a hard time about it.

Cozumel?
 
You've touched on something that is one of my pet peeves, not the waiver, but not following the DM.

The waiver is simple, and tied into it. You want to ride their boat, you sign the waiver and follow their guidelines. If you can't go with the flow, find another way to the dive site.

I'll flat out say it. Divers who take a boat that has guided dives and then refuse to follow the guide, unless another plan is agreed upon ahead of time, disrupt the dive for every other customer on the boat. They are selfish and should make every attempt to find a different way to the divesite.

I've had only 3 occasions in the 7 or so years I've been leading dives that I've had divers who wouldn't follow. That few instances leads me to believe that those who won't follow along reasonably are very few and far between and pretty clueless as to what they are doing to the rest of the charter.

I had a set the other week who wouldn't follow, the other customers complained about it privately. I'm probably still a bit bothered by it, otherwise I probably wouldn't have commented on this thread.

At any rate, most good DMs will have items of special interest they can hit on their routes that people will not find on thier own. These items or critters tend to stick to a particular spot. It can behoove you to follow the leader, why not go with the flow?

Gotta go dive. I'm sure there will be rebuttals, I may be diving all day so I might not get back right away to explain my position.

A littlle add on note: after reading RICH in NC's note about comfort/training and wreck dives, that's a legitimate concern which should ideally be noted prior to the dive. My personal gripe is on reef dives where that issue doesn't apply.

later,
 
RICHinNC:
That got me wondering, if I have to sign a waiver ....and if I have to follow the leader....then I am not doing what I would normally do...I am doing what THEY want me to do....and how can THEY absolve themselves of all responsibility??

They can't absolve themselves of all responsibility. If they insist you follow and then deliberately, recklessly or negligently place you in a position of danger and you are injured, then it is highly likely a court will find them at least partially at fault, despite what any waiver may say.

But you've got to prove negligence at minimum and that is no easy task. Assuming they stay within whatever limits were required for the dive (e.g. if OW was the only requirement, then rec limits of 120' and no overhead environments would apply), then it moves from hard to nearly impossible.

So, as long as the operator provides a minimum level of care, they can make whatever rules they want without fear of liability. If you feel these rules threaten your safety, then by all means break them - remember that you as a licensed diver have the ultimate responsibility for your own safety. But if you break the rules just because you don't like them or find them inconvenient, then it's completely reasonable for the operation to ask you not to dive with them.
 

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