Sidemount and "tec" training...

[PfcAJ]

Just to chime in here, I won't comment too much because I am neither tech trained nor a highly experienced diver. But feathering on sidemount is nowhere near as hard as you think it is, I went through an entire OW training dive doing it without thinking too much about it.

Oh...

 

[FishLovingStudent]

I thought you'd point that out so I edited it. I simply meant open water (i.e. in the ocean and not the pool). It was during my sidemount course But hey, if an OW can do it, anybody can

 

[Diver0001]

Edit: By "challenging" I meant "deeper", before I get yelled at for using that word...

Meh.

Frankly, side-mount is a gear configuration. I know at least one dedicated side-mount diver that has never made a dive that couldn't have been done (with less complication) using a standard OW configuration.

That's not to say that side-mount has no merit as a (technical) configuration. It probably does. I wouldn't know because I don't use it. What I do know is

a) you can make a LOT of technical dives without sidemount
and
b) you and make a LOT of sidemount dive without a technical element

To me it's more a curiosity than anything else. I don't see it as a paradigm shift and I don't see it as something that worthy of a whole lot of attention.

R..

 

[victorzamora]

why sidemount wouldn't work for the courses I'm wanting to do?

Ignorance and greed. The reason you're getting that attitude from those shops is purely ignorance and greed. They don't know anything about sidemount, so they speak poorly of it. They don't sell much sidemount gear, so they want you to dive the configuration they can profit from. There's nothing wrong with backmount, but I haven't had a tank on my back since I switched to SM (shut up, tbone) and I can't see myself ever going back to backmount. I'm very comfortable in sidemount and all aspects of it. I'm very comfortable with stages and deco cylinders. I dive sidemount off boats and in caves and in rivers and every other place I dive. I do deco in SM frequently. I also did a trip diving off of boats in SM in the shallows within NDLs (well, mostly within NDLs....I had a few minutes of deco once due to repetitive dives). It's simply a matter of gear configuration. I can hot-drop off of boats in the same time backmount divers can, and I climb right back up the ladder with my tanks on and unhook at the surface. It's not a big deal.

My biggest issue: What does it matter what gear configuration I choose? Backmount and sidemount have their pros and cons, and if you choose one for a reason......what should it matter?? Backmount does some things better, sidemount does others better. I have yet to be limited or hindered by sidemount, whereas I would be limited/hindered in doubles. I chose sidemount. You did, too. I'm sticking to it and ignoring "well rounded" until I come upon something that requires me to choose something other than sidemount. Until then, I'm specializing and getting darned good at it, too!

Patoux: If you can afford to swing up to visit Andy Davis, that'd be a great class!

 

[Diver0001]

Ignorance and greed. The reason you're getting that attitude from those shops is purely ignorance and greed. They don't know anything about sidemount, so they speak poorly of it.

On the other hand... and this is what I hear around me.... instructors who know next to nothing about side-mount diving sell training anyway.... because "if they want to buy it, I want to sell it".

You're trying to say that shops who don't sell side mount know next to nothing about it.....

My observation is that most of the current generation of side-mount instructors know nothing about it.

R..

 

[victorzamora]

On the other hand... and this is what I hear around me.... instructors who know next to nothing about side-mount diving sell training anyway.... because "if they want to buy it, I want to sell it".

You're trying to say that shops who don't sell side mount know next to nothing about it.....

My observation is that most of the current generation of side-mount instructors know nothing about it.

R..

And I couldn't agree more, and it's an absolute shame. Instructors that don't know sidemount should NOT be teaching it. It's unfair to everybody involved!!

However, if your sidemount techniques are squared away, a backmount-deco instructor should still be able to teach you the same course. Only difference are valve drills, which could be purely academic for the BM-only instructor. Valve drills are MUCH easier in SM as they all come down to one thing: Feathering.

My main point was that one shouldn't definitively say one method is better than the other unless looking at VERY specific cases. They each have pros and cons. Period. Saying SM is useless in the OW is just wrong.

 

[Diver0001]

Fair enough.

R..

 

[MSargeant]

My post was in response to the claim that in back-mount you keep "all of your gas", I was simply wondering how accurate that statement really is in practice. I may be very uninformed, and that's why I am posting on ScubaBoard, so that I can be corrected by the more experienced divers, who know what they are talking about, and for the benefit of others, who might be similarly uninformed.

Given the limited knowledge I have so far, a more accurate way to describe the tradeoff would have been that, if we assume an apples-to-apples comparison, and put side by side a very inexperienced sidemount diver against an equally inexperienced backmount diver:

a) In sidemount, the diver predictably loses access to 50% of the gas (since they don't know how to feather valves, or swap regulators).

If someone doesn't know how to feather a valve or swap a reg whilst diving sidemount they should go back to a single/the pool and learn.
With a free flow/failure, it's the same for backmount, identify the reg, then shut down the offending valve.

With good practise minimal gas is lost when feathering a valve, it's just easier in SM due to the valve placement.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I know how to dive, Bob. I also know how to do multi stage deco dives. I know what type of things are apt to fail, and what's involved with fixing problems under water. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see the drawbacks of round mount and and losing half your gas from a piddly reg failure.

... and while I respect your knowledge ... which in many ways is way more extensive than mine ... I think based on your answer it's safe to say that where sidemount diving is concerned you're speaking from a theoretical perspective, based purely on your experience as a backmount diver.

You're correct that diving, and an analysis of risk mitigation aren't rocket surgery. However, the significance or criticality of any failure will be dependent upon the circumstances and environment in which it occurs. And therefore it's usually not legitimate to make determinations based on broad assumptions that don't factor in things like profile, available resources, considered safety margins, the environment in which you're diving, and a host of other factors that may impact some dives and divers more than others.

I gave an example earlier, using myself and my own reasons for choosing sidemount. Which is safer ... diving sidemount and being able to fully manipulate your valves or diving backmount and having to struggle to do so ... if, as in my case, you may not be able to reach your left post at all? I understand that the pat answer in your style of diving is simple ... then don't do the dive. That's not an option I'm willing to consider ... not as long as there are other reasonable alternatives available to me. And sidemount is that other reasonable alternative.

Yes, in theory you can lose half your gas from a piddly reg failure. But in reality, if you manage your gas properly it won't prevent a manageable exit since as your dive progresses you're using that gas, and if you've managed your gas properly you will have adequate reserves in the other cylinder to make your exit safely.

In theory, depending on the failure, you can also lose half your gas from a backmount tank as well ... which is why they put isolator valves on manifolds. What are the chances of it happening, and how do you factor that risk into your dive plan?

In any configuration there are potential failures that you need to recognize and factor into your contingency planning. That's a given ... as you say, it's not rocket surgery. It's different with sidemount ... but that doesn't make it better or worse overall. There are, perhaps, some types of dives that will be better suited one way or the other ... but one configuration won't be "better" in all cases.

Personally, I think sidemount is a safer alternative for solo diving, BECAUSE your gas sources are completely independent of each other. In entrapment or entanglement situations it offers you alternatives you won't have in a backmount rig.

As in most things, there's a difference between knowing something and understanding it. I tend to give more credence to advice I get from people who have real-world experience in the things they're giving advice about ... because they've had the opportunity to put their knowledge to practical use and recognize the limitations of theoretical knowledge. In your case I'll credit that you at least have that knowledge ... and for the type of diving you do, perhaps there are no significant advantages to sidemount. But for some of us there are ... and in most cases those advantages outweigh the drawbacks that are inherent in the configuration. Even with the really good training that I received learning sidemount in the same Florida caves you dive, I didn't truly understand a lot of the advantages and drawbacks until I started putting them in practice ... and when I put that knowledge into different diving environments in places like Puget Sound, Channel Islands, Mexico, and Red Sea, the balance between advantages and drawbacks changed and I had to change my risk management approach with it.

No it ain't rocket surgery. But we don't live in a static world either. And that's where that understanding that you gain from actually using the gear comes in handy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[PfcAJ]

Just to be clear, I'd rather see someone be able to get in the water and reach their valves via sidemount than get in the water and not be able to reach them in backmount. That's a legit thing.

Other than that, sm cave, and some super remote diving, I fail to see an advantage. But I do see quite a few disadvantages.