Sidemount and helmets in open water

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If it's dumb but it works, then it's not dumb. Not saying what he should or should not do, but if he doesn't damage anything, nor is dangerous, I don't see an issue... and AFAIK this has not been dangerous in what he showed.

All the technical and rock stuff aside, most of my dives are shallow OW stuff too. And I never use my hands nor do I want my students to use them. It's unnecessary, bad style and needs to be avoided.
We walk on two legs, instead of crawling about and those two legs are also all we need in recreational scuba diving.
Actually I've even seen people do well with one leg, and mostly without using the hands to compensate for the missing leg.
 
All the technical and rock stuff aside, most of my dives are shallow OW stuff too. And I never use my hands nor do I want my students to use them. It's unnecessary, bad style and needs to be avoided.
While all of that is true, it's not the real reason to avoid using your hands ... nor the best reason to give to students. Better to explain how it tends to work against you by making it harder to maintain proper trim and that because it makes you work harder than you have to you'll tend to use up your air faster. Newer divers, in particular, tend to relate to those reasons better.

We walk on two legs, instead of crawling about and those two legs are also all we need in recreational scuba diving.
Actually I've even seen people do well with one leg, and mostly without using the hands to compensate for the missing leg.
I get your drift, but I tend to avoid visualizations that would have students thinking in terms of "walking" ... as I'm trying to get them to overcome their tendency to put themselves in a vertical orientation. But I do emphasize that their "motor" is in their feet.

But none of this really gets to the previous point that sidemount isn't a "technical" configuration, specifically ... and I think that's the point that Patoux01 was making ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
But none of this really gets to the previous point that sidemount isn't a "technical" configuration, specifically ... and I think that's the point that Patoux01 was making ...

That makes sense of course and I agree. Certainly side mount can be used in recreational or technical scenarios, and for anything in between as the boundaries are very soft.
If Patoux01 would care to read the posts I made yesterday, I even stated that it was likely somewhat "ok" to use the hands for whatever motion necessary in OW. Interesting enough Razorista disagreed with my statement.

On the other hand the sub forum "Sidemount Diving" is a part of the "Technical Diving Specialties" group.
And for someone giving advice in this forum, like Razorista does, this should be kept in mind.
After all he is posting his training and skills videos and thus giving the impression that he has some form of authority when it comes to side mount diving.

Having said that, I don't think he should promote hand sculling, especially not in a technical oriented sub forum.
 
Well, the topic was and is "helmets in sidemount open water diving" and you can see most of the problems in this thread.
In that regard posting here was...if not enlightening, at least it was demonstrative.

For once nakatomi has been caught out at trying to drag the conversation into a cave, also a typical way those discussions develop.
For him this has become a regular way of reacting to my posts everywhere that has proven to be successfull for him very often - in this thread just a week ago, for example.

When you arrive at a divesite as a sidemount diver you regularly become one of the centers of attention.
Most of the time people are very interessted and at least try to act friendly because of that.

As soon as someone spots the helmet that can often change competely within minutes.
People simply expect you to leave that in the car and react suprised that you would even consider taking it with you.
Soon the questioning starts and if you ever even remotely shine the light at another diver you are sure to hear about it in debriefing.

Often you are questioned about overhead training, experience, solo diving...
If you show to have certs for all of those disciplines conversation predictably circles back to: "Yes, but why use it here? I do not need one...".
If you avoid discussing it, like I do (I never prove any training level to anyone and and to divesite owners I only admit to have cards I really need to make a particular dive), you are soon accused of using it because you are unfit to be diving outside your cert level, which you obviously are, as proven by you owning the helmet.
That is always easy because where I am located even cavedivers rarely use helmets (on prinziple) and dry-cavers rarely talk to normal divers at all (rarely even admid to be divers themselves or pretend to be regular tec or rec divers, often loudly pretend and sometimes look like they are method acting a particular type of "dive site hero" for fun).

It has become a habit for me to go on the offensive early, talking about the advantages of the helmet mouted main light in conversation, directing people to paricular videos before meeting them...
I always have the helmet clipped to fins and mask and put those in plain view early, on top of the tanks or something.
The blinding issue will come up, but appart from that this tactic has been working for me recently.
 
For once nakatomi has been caught out at trying to drag the conversation into a cave, also a typical way those discussions develop.
For him this has become a regular way of reacting to my posts everywhere that has proven to be successfull for him very often - in this thread just a week ago, for example.

Quite the opposite is true. As your threads evolve it is you who starts to move the subject into realms where they don't fit. Like caves, wrecks, deep dives and such. Areas of diving you have no experience with or training for. That's usually when I start to object, because (as Walter Sobchak puts it) "you're out of your element".

Now back to the helmet :)

As soon as someone spots the helmet that can often change competely within minutes.
People simply expect you to leave that in the car and react suprised that you would even consider taking it with you.
Soon the questioning starts and if you ever even remotely shine the light at another diver you are sure to hear about it in debriefing.
[...]
It has become a habit for me to go on the offensive early, talking about the advantages of the helmet mouted main light in conversation, directing people to paricular videos before meeting them...
I always have the helmet clipped to fins and mask and put those in plain view early, on top of the tanks or something.

It's entirely up to you to dive with a helmet or not and nobody should question you.
Using a helmet is your choice and you have good reasons for it.

Personally my opinion is that a helmet in open water is totally ridiculous, but I'd never be in your face about it.
 
If you avoid discussing it, like I do (I never prove any training level to anyone and and to divesite owners I only admit to have cards I really need to make a particular dive).

well that's because you don't actually have any tec cards to show...

Regarding flaunting the helmet, that's just a cry for attention imho based on what you said above. I do not carry primaries into environments like the ones you dive in, because I don't need them... Helmet I don't disagree with, putting a canister light on there? I don't see why you would. Put 2-3 backup lights on there and burn one at a time, saves a whole lot of hassle. Only reason mine would come in OW is for the gopro. It's easier than the head strap because it is already mounted to my cave diving helmet, but the primary stays at home in open water. My backup lights don't come off of my rig, and two of them don't come off of the helmet now that I've committed to helmets in caves *if the passage won't fit my helmet, then I sure as hell am not going in there*.
 
the advantages of the helmet mouted main light
Such as? Let me guess:

  • Blinding your buddy every time you look at them
  • Maximum backscatter in poor viz, since the beam is so close to your line of sight as possible
  • Giving your fellow divers a reason to laugh and snicker

That's what I can think of right now. Additions to the list are appreciated.
 
When you arrive at a divesite as a sidemount diver you regularly become one of the centers of attention.
Most of the time people are very interessted and at least try to act friendly because of that.
I guess it depends on where you live. I used to get questions and interest about sidemount, but now it seems that folks don't even notice or remark ... I suspect those who might be inclined to want to use it have already gotten their questions answered and made their decisions about how they want to dive. There aren't that many sidemount divers here anyway, and everybody tends to know everybody. So we concern ourselves more with conditions and buddy teams ... which are frequently mixed in terms of diving platforms anyway ...

threeamigos.jpg


I'm fortunate in that divers where I live are generally friendly people who don't much care how someone else dives, they're just interested in having fun and hanging out with fun people. As long as you're not a dick it seems like most folks don't much care how you dive.

As soon as someone spots the helmet that can often change competely within minutes.
People simply expect you to leave that in the car and react suprised that you would even consider taking it with you.
Soon the questioning starts and if you ever even remotely shine the light at another diver you are sure to hear about it in debriefing.
Helmets aren't an issue where I typically dive ... nobody wears them. But the water's so cold that everyone's wearing a hood, and those few folks who want a head-mount light just wear one over their hood. I've dived with a few folks going head-mount, and I don't much care for it because no matter how careful they are sooner or later you do get a blast of light in your eyes ... and it's pretty distracting. Besides, I tend to dive with folks who use their lights for signaling, and that's kind've tough to do with the light mounted on your head.

Often you are questioned about overhead training, experience, solo diving...
Solo diving is where I usually get the questions ... often from people who have been conditioned to believe that it's inherently dangerous. Most times they mean well, and so it's not that difficult to respond to their concerns with a few reassurances that I've been diving this way for a long time and I obviously ain't dead yet. After a while, they leave me alone.

If you show to have certs for all of those disciplines conversation predictably circles back to: "Yes, but why use it here? I do not need one...".
If you avoid discussing it, like I do (I never prove any training level to anyone and and to divesite owners I only admit to have cards I really need to make a particular dive), you are soon accused of using it because you are unfit to be diving outside your cert level, which you obviously are, as proven by you owning the helmet.
That is always easy because where I am located even cavedivers rarely use helmets (on prinziple) and dry-cavers rarely talk to normal divers at all (rarely even admid to be divers themselves or pretend to be regular tec or rec divers, often loudly pretend and sometimes look like they are method acting a particular type of "dive site hero" for fun).
Years back it was like that with skiing ... if you weren't racing, why wear a helmet? It suggested a degree of incompetence. Nowadays it's rare to find a skier on the mountain who isn't wearing a helmet.

It has become a habit for me to go on the offensive early, talking about the advantages of the helmet mouted main light in conversation, directing people to paricular videos before meeting them...
My suggestion would be to skip the offensive ... or what sounds more to me like defensive, and only direct people if they show some genuine interest in wanting to dive that way. Otherwise, a simple "it's how I prefer to dive" will suffice, and tends to keep the conversation on more of a friendly tone. And it is, after all, the most legitimate reason for most of the equipment choices we make in scuba diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I do not think so NetDoc :wink:
The usefulness of this thread is now moot. Time to unsubscribe lest I keep feeding useless drama.
 

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