Sidemount and helmets in open water

[Razorista]

Absolutely correct.
Personally I am not ready for cave diving.
I was a rec diver before sidemount. Only wearing the Razor made me tec by default to some.

I have my own options of testing my current skill level and when we loose one of our group in a simple tryout cave I would not like to accompany them on their cave trips either (and this happened to me more than once).
We do not have a lot of interesting things to dive where I live.
What we have available is a lot of overhead.

I dive places like that most of the time, often with rec groups.

My diving leads me exactly as far as I trust myself to go solo.
In caves that means about 100 to 150 meters (at absolute maximum) outside the lighted area, depending on preparation and local rules.
Nobody needs a cert for that (not bragging, fact of the locations I am talking about) - if he is prepared to have hundreds of dives with just meters of progress and never goes too far in a single step.
Using a helmet and helmet lights proved very useful there however, so useful I want to use it 'everywhere' now.

 

[The Chairman]

Nobody needs a cert for that

You don't need the cert: you do need the training. It is foolish and dangerous to venture 100 to 150 meters inside a cave without the proper equipment, training and mind set. Even 1 meter is too far to venture in a cavern or cave without knowing what you're doing. Before they are trained, most people can't distinguish between ignorance and stupidity. They think they know, but have no clue how close to death they really are. There's nothing worth dying over in there. That includes pride, honor and all the rest. There is no honor in a stupid death. There is no honor or skill in surviving such a dive in spite of not being trained.

Is this you? I don't know. Your English is either very misleading as to what you really mean, or you're ignorant of the real dangers of cave diving. No, you don't have to assure me of a thing. I don't care to hear how smart or intelligent a person thinks they are. If you are going into cavern zones or worse without training, you're endangering yourself, the people who will have to recover your body and our sport. Too many sites have been closed due to self proclaimed 'experts' dying in an overhead. I'm hoping that language is the problem here. But I feel a duty to let others know that there is no time when it is acceptable for an untrained diver to enter an overhead environment. Don't work up to it. Don't try this progressive penetration crap. Get trained or stay out. There's still lots of cool stuff to see without putting your life in peril.

 

[Razorista]

I am trained (by competent buddys and instructors).
I am just not certified (by choice, I could be, refused the cert. As i said, I am not ready for it) and I do not know much about using lines besides finding a lost one and following a already installed mainline.

My training is only on the 'below fullcave standard' level that I dive anyway.
And if rec divers with single tanks can do those dives constantly, I surely can as well.

 

[The Chairman]

My training is only on the 'below fullcave standard' level that I dive anyway.

Why are you telling me this? I don't want to know about how you skirt the issue. I think it's stupid to forgo training for any reason. It's even worse to endanger others by encouraging them to do the same on a public forum. You want to sneak in and out of cave systems, then PLEASE keep it to yourself. We have only two iron clad rules on ScubaBoard. You can't encourage others to learn to dive OW or Overhead on their own: EVER.

The certs are the only proof that you completed training. Don't have the cert? You didn't complete the training. We don't care why you don't have the cert. Honestly. We don't want to read about your exploits breaking the rules either. That only encourages others to endanger their lives following your example. I won't have that on ScubaBoard. I hope I'm being clear on this. This is not open for discussion.

 

[nakatomi]

Why are you telling me this?

Because he is trolling us all Pete and trying to provoke us. Last year he claimed he was doing "smallish full cave dives" with penetrations to 100m/150m on a German forum. I told him back then what my opinion was about his dives. And what was especially upsetting was that he is advocating it as being safe to do on a public forum. I also reminded him that you would not appreciate if he ever pulled that off on Scubaboard and that it was against the rules on SB.
So he knows....
By the way, the German forum kicked him after they finally had enough of his epic trolling and provoking of inflammatory discussions. And now it seems that he tries to see how far he can get with it here.

 

[nakatomi]

Claiming that Lamar's students have a tendency to die was also something you, Razorista, posted on a German forum three years ago.
It ticked me off so badly back then that we got into a fight over it.
You're pretty clever and bringing this up because you think you know how I and other people will react to it.
It seems you won't stop poking us until discussions get uncivil.
I wish you would try your stunts over on the CDF, some of the people there would tear you to shreds without blinking an eye.

 

[The Chairman]

Well, that kind of crap is not allowed here. He can't discuss cave diving without training, and no one is allowed to "tear him to shreds". Please report any such nonsense and let the mods deal with it.

 

[Razorista]

I am not trying to provoke any reaction and I am not promoting cave diving in any way.
It just happens that overhead situations in my vicinity are not accessible with a cave cert, because they are to small to count for cave divers.

It is a fact that you are neither asked for a cert nor is anyone preventing even new divers from using those sites without checking for certification.
Those are normal everyday open water sites that happen to have overhead areas.

As I said: Helmets get you in trouble not with diving, but with people while dry.

My diving is always within local rules.
And that is the only kind of diving I talk about anywhere.

I do not like risks myself, I do not like thrill-seekers.
But I like 'normal' diving and it is useless to lie about the reality of that.

 

[boulderjohn]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

As NetDoc said (post 124), ScubaBoard does not allow anyone to advocate diving in caves without proper training. Having some friends show you how does not constitute proper training. Because the discussion of this was just starting and was refuted by NetDoc, I will not delete those posts right now. Any further attempts to advocate entering a cave TO ANY DEGREE without proper training will be deleted without comment.

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[Patoux01]

Those sites are normal open sites!

Please, stop being stupid. You can access caves in most of the world without having some guard at the entrance asking you for a card.

They do not count as 'cave' since they are way too small (and unknown anyway), they do not count as 'cavern', since there is no light there..

A cave is not necessarily big, and in no way does it have to be known to be considered as cave. If it's an overhead (of rocks) and not a cavern, you're in a cave.

The mods don't argue about it being legal or not, they argue about it being STUPID, hence they will not let you (or anyone) encourage that[/QUOTE]