Side Mount Bicker Battle...

[DevonDiver]

What you don't get, Razorista, is that your initial premise is incorrect. Why would anyone bother debating a faulty premise?

I see plenty enough sidemount divers of atrocious skill. Some of them come to me for clinics, because their initial training let them down and didn't deliver. Done badly, sidemount really sucks... and it's an unstable, uncomfortable mess.

I've also seen countless backmount divers of remarkable skill. Likewise, I've seen both terrible and wonderful teachers of backmount (tech/doubles). For initial skill development, the quality of teacher has as much, if not more, impact than the aptitude of the diver.

Skill comes from effective tuition, motivated learning and diligent practice....plus a certain degree of individual aptitude. Equipment does not provide skill. Nor does it empower or enable skill.

So there's nothing really to debate. What you are stating about backmount versus sidemount is either ill-informed, naive or there's a failed safeguard between your reality and fantasies.

You just resist being told that.... and push on with a faulty premise that's not going to go anywhere.

 

[Razorista]

...Done badly, sidemount really sucks... and it's an unstable, uncomfortable mess...

Have you ever seen a backmount diver with as much training deficiencies as the sidemount divers from your example?

I mean, we all sometimes criticize 'the agencies' for their basic training.
When reaching the water, however, all (almost) backmount students know to set up a jacket well enough.
Most sidemounters simply don't have comparable basic knowledge, even with normal basic training most do not even really know more than perhaps a single bungee method good enough to use it.

Complete freedom isn't benefitial to everybody, some have to work hard to use sidemount effectively.
But that is because it is different from what was learned before, not because it is harder to learn.

We see horrible deficiencies in sidemount training, since some or even most people consider a cert, like a drysuit cert for example, as strictly optional and some of those even become instructors later.
You rarely see a backmount diver without basic certs at normal dive sites, uncertified or 'falsely certified' sidemount divers are the norm however.

 

[Razorista]

The video that started the thread is a good example how most sidemount divers have to learn.
Videos like those stolen or imitated (staged with the first students sometimes) often make up the theory lessons of a sidemount class.

Most experienced sidemount divers I meet never took a class or took a really bad one and found out everything important themselves afterwards.

Today there are more experienced sidemounters available everywhere worldwide to ask for help, only a few years ago you could not find a single one on some continents without extensive research.

We got into the game very late here in Germany. Even in 2011 you still had to spell it when asking about it at dive shops on the phone.
I see the number of sidemounters and instructors increasing rapidly, but would guess more than half do not get adequate formal training and that includes instructors.

 

[DevonDiver]

Have you ever seen a backmount diver with as much training deficiencies as the sidemount divers from your example?

Of course...

Most sidemounters simply don't have comparable basic knowledge, even with normal basic training most do not even really know more than perhaps a single bungee method good enough to use it.

I haven't seen "most sidemounters". Nor have you.

However, I do see a great deal of interest and attention by sidemount divers to the development and evolutions of the equipment and procedures. Facebooks has several very active groups. Google brings up numerous quality websites and Youtube videos... not least Mike's videos..

This isn't the case for other diving activities; with the exceptions of tech and CCR.

I'd suggest that supply was spawned from demand. That there is an identifiable demand for quality information about sidemount equipment and techniques is a good indicator that the sidemount diving community is keen to keep abreast of developments and learn best practices.

We see horrible deficiencies in sidemount training...,

We see horrible deficiencies in every aspect of scuba training; and we also see wonderful, comprehensive training also.

So...some agencies viewed sidemount as "just another specialty course" and didn't recognize that it deserved a little bit more expertise and experience from the instructional cadre. That's nothing new... they do the same with recreational wreck training and quite a few other specialist (not 'specialty') activities.

The problems with 'zero-to-hero', inexperienced instructors who lack the expertise to teach comprehensive or adequate courses is definitely not a phenomenon associated only with sidemount diving.

Because of the increasing resources online...and community interest.... I'd say that sidemount was one of the least tainted specialisms. Any potential sidemount diver who has the slightest motivation to seek good training has a multitude of informative resources available online to guide them to effective tuition. The same cannot be said for many other specialisms.

You rarely see a backmount diver without basic certs at normal dive sites, uncertified or 'falsely certified' sidemount divers are the norm however.

Can a sidemount diver be "falsely certified", but an equally sub-par backmount diver cannot be?

A great many divers transition into double backmount without a formal course. Aside from tech training, there is only the 'intro-to-doubles' type of clinics that aren't anywhere near as comprehensive or formal as a sidemount course.

 

[Razorista]

Can a sidemount diver be "falsely certified", but an equally sub-par backmount diver cannot be?

Uncertified divers are extremely rare.
Uncertified sidemounters are the norm, as I said.

Of course diving is not only equipment, but the equipment is meant to help.
Personally I rather discuss technology than philosophy, skills or other topics without definite answers.
Equipment always can be analyzed and understood and has to be in my opinion.

If sidemount classes where as good as backmount classes they would have to take as long as a normal OWD class, perhaps saving a day of theorie.
You could also replace the backmount part of a complete OWD class with sidemount.

Even very good sidemount classes have half as many dives as a padi owd if you include pool sessions.
Sidemount classes sometimes do not even include a single pool session, most start with 'real' dives, sometimes in unsuitable environment for rapid learning.

 

[Razorista]

... great many divers transition into double backmount without a formal course. ....

That is a completely different transition, wouldn't you agree yourself?

Going from a Jacket to backmounted doubles mounted securely to a backplate is an improvement, but changes nothing fundamental.
It is just heavier to carry and for some setups a lot easier to dive well with.

Going to sidemount you essentially have to relearn most skills, some even become useless and several new have to be learned.
It is an easy transition, but is a lot easier if you have only taken apnea classes before or none at all (probably, don't know any who started in sidemount personally).

 

[Razorista]

...to keep abreast of developments and learn best practices.

People do not really like to discuss best practice however.
Most like to hear that others aren't doing any better.

When trying to imitate the videos many use for learning (you cannot tell me you haven't done that yourself, unconsciously perhaps, but all of you/us have done that) it is next to impossible to guess your own level of success without good visibility and a good camera.
Most of us secretly think we look even better than any Steve Bogaerts at least sometimes.

Really discussing details however, really giving helpful advice... that's more than rare.
Most of the time people either love and 'like' every horrible video posted or nitpick on unimportant details.

I do not critizise that, mind you, I am just observing.

 

[DevonDiver]

Uncertified divers are extremely rare.
Uncertified sidemounters are the norm, as I said.

What you say has little relevance to reality. That's a point that I've noticed numerous posters raise with you on varied threads.

Your perceptions of global sidemount diving are very narrow and not reflective of the big picture. Refusing to consider that possibility also makes your perceptions blinkered.

PADI have provided sidemount training since 2012, at both recreational and technical levels. Do you seriously think that the majority of sidemount divers are uncertified?

I'd suggest that a tiny, tiny, minority of sidemount divers globally are uncertified. I don't care if that reflects the situation in Germany, as that is neither a hotspot for sidemount diving, nor a thriving dive-training location.

Basing your perceptions of global sidemount trends on what you see at your local pool or lake is just as laughable as someone who based their opinions of global soccer on what they saw in their local park. It doesn't earn people's respect... but you might get a pat on the head and a lollipop...

 

[Bennno]

...I don't care if that reflects the situation in Germany

He doesn't know anything about the situation in Germany either, he might know what's going on in his little county, that's it. Have you noticed the names he keeps bringing up? Dallas, Martin, Bogearts, HP... guys that have popular youtube channels, if you had a youtube channel, he'd be kissing your butt right now.

@razor, where do you dive an where you meet all these people? Why are you commenting on training? You have not been trained and you're not an instructor either. Where do you get your information training and statistics?

 

[DevonDiver]

That is a completely different transition, wouldn't you agree yourself?

I wouldn't agree. Equipment is equipment. You learn specific skills and adapt generic skills. You learn set-up, configuration and adaptation. You learn how to apply the necessary protocols.

It's not rocket-science, nor is it miraculous. It's pretty bloody simple stuff.

A basic sidemount course simply adapts OPEN WATER skills to a slightly modified equipment basis. The only addition is the aspect of gas management of two tanks.

A technical sidemount course simply adapts ENTRY-LEVEL TECH skills to a slightly modified equipment basis.

The only issue with zero-to-hero instructors is their lack of familiarity with the equipment - when all they are supposed to be doing is teaching that equipment. That issue stems mainly from recreational sidemount instructors who lack a technical instructor's expertise and insight into setting-up and configuring equipment; rather than donning and adjusting kit via adjustable buckles.

I know this, because I qualified some of the course directors that now qualify the current generation of sidemount instructors. Those instructor-trainers aren't specialist in sidemount, nor expert in fundamental (tech/overhead) skills,... and they don't dive sidemount as their primary configuration... most dive it only when teaching it (which is very occasionally). It doesn't take a genius to see the breakdown in expertise. They, nonetheless, deliver standard agency course syllabus to the agency specified standards.... but are limited with their equipment and protocol familiarity...especially on the diverse and growing range of sidemount rigs on the market. But they can strap their instructor students into a Hollis SMS50 off-the-shelf and tick all the right boxes.

You seem to view any 'non-elite' sidemount instructor or diver as sub-standard. That's naive. Yes... we have icons like Bogearts, Martin, Dallas etc... who market themselves exceptionally and have elite reputations stemming from cave diving. They charge big-$$$ and provide a syllabus far in excess of the basic requirements. They include, as standard, refined fundamental skills that compliment the equipment based training... and transition practices and procedures from technical and overhead diving... introducing them at the earliest stages with a 'beginning with the end in mind' philosophy. Sound familiar?

That's a modern trend... a business model that became popular with the success of GUE. It's uncompromising in quality and reflected in cost. It's also a tiny niche market.

Below this we have a scale of instructors... ranging from awesome 'elite' instructors who don't have much time, expertise or interest in social media and internet marketing... down to dedicated 'non-elite' sidemount instructors, through to competent generalist instructors that run good sidemount courses... down to the zero-to-heroes who learned in a few days and dive sidemount only when they have a sidemount student to teach once or twice a year. The further down that scale you slide, the less is provided beyond the bare-bones equipment conversion necessities.

Last, but not least, we have a tiny....and diminishing... minority of instructors who jumped on the band-wagon at an early stage and hopelessly made it up as they went along. They're basically scammers... Their numbers are diminishing for two reasons; firstly because the consumer is better educated about what to expect from sidemount training... and secondly, because even those scammers learn something over time and start getting it right.

I initially learned sidemount from a very elite instructor... Bruce Konefe. He doesn't do a lot of articles, or have time for glamorous YouTube channels and fancy webpages... so people on the fringes won't have heard of him. He doesn't have 'fan-boys' on chat forums. He is, nonetheless, an elite instructor with staggering amounts of experience at phenomenally high levels of diving; and has taught for decades. There are quite a few like him... 'unsung heros'.... quietly producing the future generations of world-class divers.

That's the world of sidemount instruction right now. It's varied... it's developing.... and it's not some sort of dark or mysterious art. Simple equipment, basic skills and a growing cadre of developing instructors who teach an eager and increasingly informed demographic of consumers.