Show some respect... bug hunters at Casino Point

[Rainer]

And just because you or I don't like it doesn't make it "wrong".

People's varied opinions of what is right/wrong tend to make much worse benchmarks than laws. That's the reason (Western) societies have adopted laws. Just because PETA thinks its improper, bad form, unethical, and discourteous to hunt doesn't mean they get to dictate no hunting for all.

Personally, I have no idea why people choose to hunt in the park. I assume the few that do hunt there, eat their catch (even on a resort island).

Listen, the only reason anyone could be upset about this and not the hunting that's happening a mile away is because they selfishly want to look at some lobsters. That's fine, but that doesn't make someone chickensh*t or a coward. I don't think you're an idiot for taking the lobsters out at Vet's that I'd far prefer to see in the water than in your catch bag.

The best way to address this is to work on making the park a reserve, not threatening those with whom you disagree.

[/COLOR]

Just because its legal doesn't make it right.

Legal is a very poor benchmark for what is proper and not. Bad form, and not. Ethical, and not. Courteous, and not.

There is no defensible reason to take lobster from the dive park. Not one. Are you really thinking what we're seeing here is sustenance hunting in the dive park? On a resort island? Really?

They're being taken for sport. They're being taken for greed. They're being taken for vanity. They're being taken under cover of night. They're being taken so someone can show someone else how badass they are.

Just because its legal doesn't make it right. Its chicken$hit, and people who do this are selfish cowards.


-Ken

 

[Rainer]

Two seasons ago, on a twilight dive - a guy rolled out with a lobster bag. Three bugs in it. Claudette went over and spoke to the guy (he was set up near us) - we respectful told the guy what the purpose of the park was. We talked about its use, its history.

He went and put the bugs back.

That's a great edit and fits exactly with what I suggested in an earlier post. Education works a lot better than calling someone an idiot, chickensh*t, or a coward (or threatening physical violence...). Seriously, most of the people who hunt there probably just don't know the history of the park. Don't shun then, approach them and talk.

 

[Mo2vation]

And just because you or I don't like it doesn't make it "wrong".

People's varied opinions of what is right/wrong tend to make much worse benchmarks than laws. That's the reason (Western) societies have adopted laws. Just because PETA thinks its improper, bad form, unethical, and discourteous to hunt doesn't mean they get to dictate no hunting for all.

Personally, I have no idea why people choose to hunt in the park. I assume the few that do hunt there, eat their catch (even on a resort island).

Listen, the only reason anyone could be upset about this and not the hunting that's happening a mile away is because they selfishly want to look at some lobsters. That's fine, but that doesn't make someone chickensh*t or a coward. I don't think you're an idiot for taking the lobsters out at Vet's that I'd far prefer to see in the water than in your catch bag.

The best way to address this is to work on making the park a reserve, not threatening those with whom you disagree.

The park will not become a reserve. It just won't.

Bill can go into the myriad reasons - but the fact is its not on anybody's short list to become a reserve.

And once again, we'll disagree. Just because you and I don't like it (pile in thousands of other divers that visit the part many times a year, year after year after year) does in fact give us the right and the obligation to call it wrong.

We spend more time there. We have a deeper investment in seeing it remain unchanged, un-littered, un-hunted. We spend more time there so we have more to lose. We have more to lose, so our opinion, our views carry more weight.

We are all created equal - we do not all remain equal in all things. And users, contributors, visitors, lovers of the park carry more influence and more weight in their views than do hunters who roll in for a few weeks of the year to rape lobster from the place.

Just because you and I don't like it, that does in fact make it wrong.


-Ken

 

[Rainer]

Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think either position is "right"/"wrong" (someone wanting to eat a bug vs. look at a bug; hardly earth shattering ethical issues here, IMO), but I do think those with more to gain should definitely speak up (as you note, we have more to lose).

Speaking up, though, shouldn't take the negative form of name calling and physical threats.

There are better ways to influence people.

 

[xstephenx]

[/COLOR]

Just because its legal doesn't make it right.

Legal is a very poor benchmark for what is proper and not. Bad form, and not. Ethical, and not. Courteous, and not.

There is no defensible reason to take lobster from the dive park. Not one. Are you really thinking what we're seeing here is sustenance hunting in the dive park? On a resort island? Really?

They're being taken for sport. They're being taken for greed. They're being taken for vanity. They're being taken under cover of night. They're being taken so someone can show someone else how badass they are.

Just because its legal doesn't make it right. Its chicken$hit, and people who do this are selfish cowards.

-Ken

Give me a f*cking break. Are you hunting lobster for sustenance? Are you so hard up that you have to catch all your food? Not a f*cking chance. I wouldn't take anything from the dive park, but that doesn't mean I don't see it as fair game. What is the difference between the dive park and any other dive site on catalina? Are any of you so convinced that lobsters are so intelligent as to know to gather at the park because they know it is safe? If they were that smart they would just hide deeper in the rocks and laugh as divers killed themselves trying to grab them. Again, I wouldn't take anything from the dive park because I go there to view stuff as much as the next guy, but I also wouldn't bitch and moan because someone decided to hunt there. Like Rainer said, it is one person's opinion vs. anothers. Not a personal attack against you, your opinions just seemed to be the most vocal on this thread (weird for a lobster hunter too). This is just like saying that someone should only hunt lobsters and not fish because you don't hunt fish and you don't want to see them hurt. Guess what people, those fish aren't born in a freezer, if you like eating them you sure as hell enjoy killing them.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I hate those bass-tards too. Just imagine what they must be thinking: "I'll follow all the laws and use the underwater park for diving and my chosen recreational activities."

Thank goodness they weren't out their habituating the lobsters to bright lights and thereby making them easy picking for some other night diver who wants to rip their heads off and eat their tails!

 

[on_two_wheels]

I can see in this argument the basis of a great quote I once read. Don't recall the source but:

The problem with out society is we worship people, not values.

As a society, we care more about if a celebrity is going to jail than how many soldiers died in the middle east, the corruption of our government by big business interests and oil, etc. Sad.

 

[Rhone Man]

I have to side with Rainer on this one. Legality and morality are not the same thing, but in a country where hunting is as heavily regulated as the US, if someone is taking game legally, I have a hard time seeing how that crosses an ethical boundary.

Clearly those who don't like game being taken would prefer to see hunting circumscribed in favourite spots. Personally I'd like to make smoking in public illegal, but until it is I can't claim any moral legitimacy to call on others to stop.

 

[Mo2vation]

Give me a f*cking break. Are you hunting lobster for sustenance? Are you so hard up that you have to catch all your food? Not a f*cking chance. I wouldn't take anything from the dive park, but that doesn't mean I don't see it as fair game. What is the difference between the dive park and any other dive site on catalina? Are any of you so convinced that lobsters are so intelligent as to know to gather at the park because they know it is safe? If they were that smart they would just hide deeper in the rocks and laugh as divers killed themselves trying to grab them. Again, I wouldn't take anything from the dive park because I go there to view stuff as much as the next guy, but I also wouldn't bitch and moan because someone decided to hunt there. Like Rainer said, it is one person's opinion vs. anothers. Not a personal attack against you, your opinions just seemed to be the most vocal on this thread (weird for a lobster hunter too). This is just like saying that someone should only hunt lobsters and not fish because you don't hunt fish and you don't want to see them hurt. Guess what people, those fish aren't born in a freezer, if you like eating them you sure as hell enjoy killing them.

I can't begin to rationalize your argument - You wouldn't take anything but you think its fair game if other do? OK.

Actually, its nothing like me saying someone should only hunt lobsters. But thanks for that.

What's the difference between the dive park and any other dive site on Catalina? C'mon Stephen. Are you really asking that? Lets start with this: it has stairs. Its roped off.

The dive park is like no other dive site on Catalina. Its a dive park. The dive park is for diving. Hunters have 100% of the rest of the island.

I'm not anti-hunter. Not at all. To paint me as such is insincere and disingenuous. I am anti hunting in the dive park.

This isn't about squashing hunter's precious rights. I'm not taking land from you. I'm giving you 100% of the rest of the island. Be civil, and concede a few hundred yards.

But you know what? You can't. Because Hunters have only one argument - the slippery slope. You can't release a couple of hundred yards of managed, manicured machine groomed shoreline with a stair entry for fear of losing something in return. You can't bring yourself to the rational place of saying, "yeah - for this small strip I shall not hunt."

And that's funny, because in my experience the most sincere, most well equipped and most well spoken (and most well funded) supporters of pristine land and oceans are generally hunters. Except for this 300 yards of shore line. You'll stand up and scream and cuss - with no rational argument except "its my right" - and while you'll not take anything yourself, you're OK with others lifting fish and lobster from a dive park. You prefer the right to hunt over the preservation of the dive park - that's fine. Its just counter intuitive to me.

The hunting is easy in the park because nearly nobody hunts there. Yes - nearly every lobster nearly every night of the year gets night dived - with no consequence. I have done hundreds of dives there, many, many dozen at night. Lobsters there don't even dart away most of the time. As you so deftly stated, lobsters don't gather in the park as a sanctuary zone - but one night dive there (you've done several, right?) and you'll confirm they just don't fear divers as they should there. Same with the sheephead, the bass and nearly every other animal there.

Its a dive park. Its not a pheasant club or a duck club. Its a dive park. A very small, very modest, very special place in Catalina. Why is it so hard for you to get behind the no hunting side on this and be a diver in a dive park?

What other reason, aside from "because I can" (and legally, that's enough) can an experienced hunter such as yourself give for wanting to go out and hunt lobster in a dive park?



-K

 

[drbill]

Must admit I don't understand your logic, xstephenx.

I have nothing against those who take lobster in all the areas open to such hunting as long as it is done legally. However, the dive park is different. As Ken and I have mentioned, the fact that poachers and legal hunters are taking bugs there has affected the behavior of the lobster and therefore our ability to enjoy them. That has impacted MY rights IMHO (and those of the tens of thousands of other divers who abide by the de facto "protected" status of the park). By the way, your language in your post is a bit much.

There is 54 miles of coastline around Catalina. Although Ken suggested 100% of it is open to hunters, there are current reserves along a small portion of the coast that hunters can not hunt in. Why do some have to choose the 300 yards of coast in the dive park? Why can't they (like 99+% of the other divers in the park) show courtesy towards its value as a "protected" area and towards the vast majority of the divers who observe this special status? Because they are thinking only of themselves and their needs.

And Ken, the dive park IS on the list of probable reserves that will be voted on by the California Fish & Game Commission.