Should SB be required reading in OW classes?

[Lorenzoid]

Now, granted I don't teach through a shop and my classes tend to be a bit more informal and flexible than those who do, but I encourage lots of questions from my students ... and we often spend a considerable amount of class time looking at perspectives that are "alternative" to the agency curriculum. But my students also tend to be a self-selecting group who seek out private instruction because they want more than what's being offered through a standard dive shop experience. So it works both ways.

That said, a great deal of our discussion takes place outside of the class environment ... often through email. While I don't require students to look at ScubaBoard ... or any other source outside of the provided class materials ... I do encourage it. I think reading about, discussing, and thinking about perspectives other than what's presented in the class materials helps students make better decisions. And the ability to make good decisions is at least as important to diver safety as having good training and developing good skills.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yep. It would be great if all OW scuba instruction was conducted the way Bob does it. But as I said:

. . . Again, it seems to me that you instructors who contribute regularly on SB probably teach on a quality level above the average instructor.

You people who not only have time to chat with students but also possess the knowledge and/or experience to field questions beyond what's in the OW Instructor Manual are not the norm from what I've seen in OW scuba instructors. A whole lot of OW instructors are fairly inexperienced and have no exposure to diving beyond OW. I just can't imagine many of them having the time and/or knowledge to discuss in depth the kinds of things that get discussed on SB.

Sure, Bob, for the kind of classes you and instructors like you teach, it makes sense to me that you might inform your students about resources like SB. But I interpreted the original question as whether SB should be on the reading list for OW students in general, not just the cream of the crop. And that I think would not be a good idea.

 

[Scott]

I was surprised to read Frank's (Wookie) statement that PADI instructors aren't allowed to have an account here. To me that is an indictment of PADI as an organization. Whatever happened to free association? PADI may disagree with some of the things posted here, but I don't see what gives them any right to restrict access for their instructors.

Just a point of clarification. PADI employees are not allowed to post as a PADI employee.
I know a couple of employees who do have accounts here but they will not post in regards to PADI policies or philosophy.

 

[Diver0001]

I can't say I've observed many OW classes or been acquainted with many instructors personally, but from what I have observed and heard, most OW instructors have little time to spare for "discussion" in their classes. What if all of your students had read SB because it was "required reading," and it prompted five or six students to come into class with interesting questions that could easily drag on into 20-minute discussions each? Again, it seems to me that you instructors who contribute regularly on SB probably teach on a quality level above the average instructor. I wish you had been my instructor.

If often doesn't take much time and I think I can add something by translating what they're asking about into applicability for local conditions.

Obviously, if there are too many questions, or complex questions, you will have to park it or delay it. As an instructor you have a lot more time available than you might think you have to "time box" discussions. Before class, after class, breaks, surface intervals or even in the car on the way to/from the dive site. There's a lot of time. The trick is to make sure you make a record of questions you have to park so you don't forget them.

I also give my students my email address and tell them that they can mail me any questions they have while preparing for class. I don't answer all of the in email. Sometimes I collect them and start the lesson with a short discussion about questions people mailed me. Being prepared helps save time because I know how I want to answer ahead of time.

It's all about time management.

R..

 

[uncfnp]

Information and questions ALWAYS have their place. It's how they're handled that is the problem.

I see this is as the point where the instructor needs to be able to guide the discussion to information relevant to the particular section of the course they're working on at the moment. Good instructors can roll with it and table the discussions if it becomes too far off topic. I really think this is the reason a lot of instructors don't want their students knowing about these kinds of resources; they simply don't know how to appropriately deal with the conversations without it impacting their lecture times.

Sure, you can let outside questions derail your course, but you have to deal with that no matter what. I asked a lot of questions during my course (even before I found scubaboard). Because I had a higher level physics understanding I asked for more detail (which my instructor couldn't provide) on the gas theory and where to find it and "what if" scenarios. When I had gear configuration questions, I asked. When my questions went too far afield, my instructor basically said, "let's talk about it after class so we don't get too far behind our curriculum schedule." Simple solution, handled well.

The worst thing that happens is you go off topic a bit and then sidebar the discussion for a break or after class if it's too distracting. Giving students a good resource for information is always a good thing, in my opinion.

...///... possess the knowledge and/or experience to field questions beyond what's in the OW Instructor Manual are not the norm from what I've seen in OW scuba instructors. A whole lot of OW instructors are fairly inexperienced and have no exposure to diving beyond OW. I just can't imagine many of them having the time and/or knowledge to discuss in depth the kinds of things that get discussed on SB...//...

And that raises the question that should instructors without the teaching skills to handle class discussion or the knowledge base to answer appropriate dive related questions be certified as instructors? Should students be penalized by not giving them additional resources just because the instructor may be incapable of dealing with the consequences?

 

[lowviz]

And that raises the question that should instructors without the teaching skills to handle class discussion or the knowledge base to answer appropriate dive related questions be certified as instructors? ...//...

Being instructors, they must have attained minimum standards. So the knee-jerk answer is "shop around", easy to say but very hard for the non-diver to either "grade" an OW instructor or instruction.

Maybe they should lurk on SB for a month or two before committing...

 

[endurodog]

ufncp your responses seem kind of hostile towards some of those that have responded. I have been reading through the responses and think that your missing what some are saying. Knowledge is great in any endeavor your learning but in the context of any course you as the instructor need to decided what information is most relevant and helpful. So where do you draw the line on info given. Is it 5 different books on diving, 10? Is it just SB or do you give other sites also? Your going to have to limit the information because no one will get through all the information that could be given. Many of the post on SB have very strong opinions on issues and some are flat out wrong. Do you direct your students to those types of information sources or to others that are less opinion laced and more fact based? I would venture an opinion that every instructor here is more than willing to answer questions about scuba from many sources, the vast majority are in instruction because they love scuba and like giving that love to others, none are getting rich.

 

[drrich2]

uncfnp:

Your critique of my position was a good one so I'll try to address it.

1.) I don't advocate censorship as I understand it, trying to block access to or even discourage use of ScubaBoard. And I do believe pointing newly cert.'d OW divers to it to be a fine idea.

2.) As for timing of introduction, a lot of modern scuba courses are, well, fast & compact. Hard enough to get the core info. into the students. By way of comparison, consider some of our strong forum debates about whether substantial rescue info. & training should be included in the basic OW course, or whether the nitrox course ought to be rolled into it, and cross reference with the disdain sometimes shown for 'resort courses' taken on tropical vacations.

3.) Since we're talking about basic OW courses in general, and a change that would probably have to be mandated at the agency level, and given that an agency will not likely endorse a shifting body of info. it has no control over, this is not going to happen. Instructors themselves could and some probably do refer students to ScubaBoard. I'd like to see it more done often. But probably at the end of course, or at least after they've passed the academic portion so they've got a knowledge base to build on.

Richard.

 

[uncfnp]

ufncp your responses seem kind of hostile ...//...

Hostile? :kiss2:

---------- Post added February 20th, 2014 at 01:06 PM ----------

...//...your missing what some are saying...//...

Not agreeing with it is NOT the same as missing it.

 

[rhwestfall]

Include it? Okay, but also go back to a significant number of hours of classroom and pool time to use/discuss/etc. Return O/W to what is now O/W, AOW and part of rescue. Go back to "not everyone gets a card". Do away with "zero to hero".

Oh wait, there are some that already do that.....

 

[endurodog]

Questioning the teaching skills of instructors not using SB instead of asking why they don't or understanding why they don't, was clear to me. This thread is a great example of why many would not use SB as a teach tool for new students. You have fun with it, I'm out.