Should Nitrox Certification require dives....

[TCDiver1]

Bouyancy control isnt a requirement on basic nitrox courses. The entry requirements assume that is already mastered. It isnt a new or different skill introduced with nitrox - its something that isnt any different from basic open water and so on. Demanding dives for something that isnt part of the course is imho daft.

LOL .... daft?
Perhaps, if and when you become an instructor, and start certifying students on your own, you will change your mind. From my experience, you assume too much, if you assume basic skills are up to par.

You either accept that a person meets the minimum requirements for the course or give them an exam before accepting them on a course, assessing them for something that isnt part of the course is pointless.

Or, the student can read the course outline, understand that dives & demostrating basic scuba skills are part of the course, and either take the course or not.

Basic scuba skills are part of every scuba course imo and assessing those skills is far from pointless if i'm putting my name on the card.

I'll tell you what is pointless, this debate.

 

[The Kraken]

Let's put it like this . . .
If a basic open water diver, not nitrox certified, were to be given a tank of EAN22 and him be unaware that it contained an increased percentage of oxygen, therefore falling into the definition of Nitrox, would you expect him to encounter some aspect in the dive with which he was unfamiliar or would require new dive skills? Not academic understanding, mind you, but physical diving skills.

 

[String]

LOL .... daft?
Perhaps, if and when you become an instructor, and start certifying students on your own, you will change your mind.

As i never bothered setting it in my profile fair enough you cant tell but i am actively instructing and certifying/qualifying students.

Basic scuba skills are part of every scuba course imo and assessing those skills is far from pointless if i'm putting my name on the card.

Its a totally theoretical course that demands absolutely nothing at all in terms of diving above what the entry requirements are. Nothing changes, nothing is performed differently. Nitrox with the exception of gas analysis is a totally theoretical course. Diving is just creaming more money into someones pocket at the expense of the student.

 

[TCDiver1]

Let's put it like this . . .
If a basic open water diver, not nitrox certified, were to be given a tank of EAN22 and him be unaware that it contained an increased percentage of oxygen, therefore falling into the definition of Nitrox, would you expect him to encounter some aspect in the dive with which he was unfamiliar or would require new dive skills? Not academic understanding, mind you, but physical diving skills.

My point is, one would have no idea unless one dove with or was familiar with that diver.

The percentage of O2 isn't the only issue at play here even if it is only EAN22. Unless i've recently certified or dove with the student, i have no idea if the diver is safe on air. Remediation of basic skills is often needed in follow on classes to OW. And i do view that as my responsibility even if the class is Nitrox.

Sure, i could assume because the person was certified at one time, that it isn't my problem, just do academics and crank out students but generally speaking i'm just not comfortable with that.

I understand many of you think the dives are overkill. Generally speaking, i don't agree with that for reasons mentioned numerous times in this thread. So, to summarize, if you want to take nitrox and not do the dives you do have choices. I'm not one of them and likely never will be.

And String, my apologies. Your right, i couldn't discern from your profile that you are currently teaching. So why don't you get me your instructor info & i'll get signed up for the instructor forum. Unless of course you already are signed up.

By the way, we will likely never agree on the Nitrox dive thing so i'm not spinning my wheels with you on that anymore.

 

[MHK]

Bouyancy control isnt a requirement on basic nitrox courses. The entry requirements assume that is already mastered. It isnt a new or different skill introduced with nitrox - its something that isnt any different from basic open water and so on. Demanding dives for something that isnt part of the course is imho daft.

You either accept that a person meets the minimum requirements for the course or give them an exam before accepting them on a course, assessing them for something that isnt part of the course is pointless.

I can't disagree with you any more strongly then I currently do. To suggest that bouyancy control isn't a requirement is, dare I say, ridiculous. Bouyancy control is, or should be, a requirement for every class. Moreover, no competent instructor should assume that the student has basic bouyancy control. Given that with the exception of GUE, every agency in the world allows their c-cards to remain valid forever. So let's assume that a student shows up to your class and hasn't dove since 1962, his c-card is still valid, and based upon your analysis, you would have the instructor assume this diver has bouyancy control.. The problem with much of the dive industry is at each and every level they are trying to please too many people, and not turn people off so they accomodate and relax training standards as a result. Since there is no requirement for a refresher, or no requirement to keep your c-card current, any instructor would absolutely be remissed if they presumed any level of competency based upon the presentation of a c-card. If we extend your analysis about assuming basic bouyancy since they presumably satisfied the criteria during OW class, then one would really have to ask why the necessity for the Peak Preformance Bouyancy Control specialty class. I mean, applying your logic, there would be no need for such a class because bouyancy should have been mastered at the OW level.. But we all know in the real world, way too many students get shuffled along within the system with promises of continuing education classes, so it's nearly to the point of negligence to presume that because someone shows you an OW card that they posses bouyancy control.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

Regards,

 

[String]

I still disagree with your take on this. IF the student doesnt make the entry requirements for the course which in the case of nitrox is OW equivalent meaning they are supposedly competent you dont accept them on the course. Once you've accepted them on the course you are accepting theyve met the minimum standards.
Going from that as a basic nitrox courses teaches nothing at all different to do with diving, equipment or methodology its utterly pointless demanding dives for the sake of dives.
Take the PADI course for example that involves a dive - its not an assessed dive, its simply a dive. You dont pass or fail based on that. Therefore its a utterly pointless requirement.

 

[The Kraken]

Yessiree-Bob !!!!
You've passed your academics, now we're going to sit on the bottom of the pool and breathe EAN32 to see if ya remember how to breathe !!!! And we're gonna do it not once, but TWICE !!! That'll be $50 please . . .

 

[Firebrand]

Yessiree-Bob !!!!
You've passed your academics, now we're going to sit on the bottom of the pool and breathe EAN32 to see if ya remember how to breathe !!!! And we're gonna do it not once, but TWICE !!! That'll be $50 please . . .

Not only that, but we'll make you go over your basic open water skills again, such as fin pivots, and hovering. Heck, just for good measure, we'll even throw in those scary mask removal and replacement procedures - why - because they're SOOOOOO different when breathing EAN32!!! Yes Sir, we're going to do it all over again!!!

 

[jonnythan]

I totally disagree with you Mike.

My Nitrox card says that I have been instructed and trained on the planning and use of Nitrox.

My Open Water Diver card says that I have been instructed and trained on diving.

I don't want to pay extra to go diving with an instructor of questionable skill or merit for no reason whatsoever.

 

[ShakaZulu]

Dives are a waste of time, unless they can get me to experience an O2 hit, and get me to the surface safely. Bet I will pay much more attention to that PO2 indicator.