Should new divers be exposed to controversial views?

[akbpilot]

I don't have a clue why you posted that, so here is a fish standing on it's tail:

See, now that's the spirit. In one post you have exposed new divers to three controversial subjects:

Poor Bouyancy Control

Touching the Reef

Gear color selection (looks like a bad dream from a Henderson catalog)

 

[NudeDiver]

OK, what does this have to do with the OP's original post??? He said new divers, not uncertified students...

I agree. It's entirely unclear to me what the first amendment has to do with diving in general, this board in more particular, and this topic more specifically. Can you please explain?

 

[firstdive2005]

See, now that's the spirit. In one post you have exposed new divers to three controversial subjects:

Poor Bouyancy Control

Touching the Reef

Gear color selection (looks like a bad dream from a Henderson catalog)

That's funny but you did'nt explain YOUR contro-statement.

 

[firstdive2005]

First of all, I am an extreme advocate of the first admendment, that being said, it is sometimes disconcerting that because I am certified to teach by an agency, that everyone thinks they know how I teach and to what level....just because my agency does not dictate I MUST have a 100 hour course, I teach students to be unsafe. There are others who have a bitter taste in their mouths for the agency I am certified to teach for, and have found their niche in a new agency, so at every opportunity they inject their "better" idea into the conversation. What is normally ignored it the fact that, just because, and I'll use the term, many, instructional businesses under the same auspices, cut corners, does not mean that we all do. I believe, and until someone with more experience and authority, tells me so, I teach a well rounded course with emphasis on safety and knowledge for my students, within and exceeding the minimum guidelines of my agency. What it takes is deciding you, the instructor, doesn't mind spending the time to teach....teach, not just certify, the students. Too many broad brushes and self illuminating is the main problem with these discussions. I will not attack another agencies course, and I do get tired of hearing my chosen agency degraded pretty much on a daily basis, if not by name, often just insinuation by people I do admire, trying to push their thoughts on an unknowing readership.

Is this about you answering a post to an new diver question and then getting flamed for it because of the agency your with?

 

[akbpilot]

That's funny but you did'nt explain YOUR contro-statement.

Well, you know.....any color as long as it's black

 

[TSandM]

Well, I think ScubaBoard is living proof that just about anything in diving can be controversial. I started to say everything except "never hold your breath", but we've even argued about that (open glottis, closed glottis).

Some very useful threads have been started here by experienced divers, and not as a response to a new diver question. Rick Murchison had a lovely piece on the unattainable state of neutral buoyancy. I did one on dive planning a while back. New divers don't always even know what questions they should be asking . . . I know I didn't.

Even though we may disagree in gross or fine over almost ANY topic, I still think it's quite reasonable for people to write essays for new divers, or to post links to useful information -- like Bob's articles, or the 5thD-x videos of kicks. If there are people here who object to the information that's posted, or want to editorialize, they have the thread in which to do so. That's the essence of bulletin boards.

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Well, I think ScubaBoard is living proof that just about anything in diving can be controversial. I started to say everything except "never hold your breath", but we've even argued about that (open glottis, closed glottis).

Some very useful threads have been started here by experienced divers, and not as a response to a new diver question. Rick Murchison had a lovely piece on the unattainable state of neutral buoyancy. I did one on dive planning a while back. New divers don't always even know what questions they should be asking . . . I know I didn't.

Even though we may disagree in gross or fine over almost ANY topic, I still think it's quite reasonable for people to write essays for new divers, or to post links to useful information -- like Bob's articles, or the 5thD-x videos of kicks. If there are people here who object to the information that's posted, or want to editorialize, they have the thread in which to do so. That's the essence of bulletin boards.

I'll go one step further about "divers not knowing the question" as an explanation for posting such information articles, and it's a simple one.

None of us read dive magazines because we have a question to be answered. We read them for the knowledge, information and entertainment we receive from reading them. If dive magazines only answered questions from divers, they would be called manuals

TSandM, I'm sorry your thread turned the wrong corner. Perhaps you could restart it with a more defined intro that leaves no doubt in the reader's mind and see where that leads.

 

[Diver0001]

To me, this states that you have a closed mind.

You have pre-judged the content based on tone.

Maybe you're right, Jeff, but I'm not willing to dig through very much crap to find a pearl of wisdom.

It's not worth my time and I have certain expectations about how people should communicate with each other. I don't think anyone should be asked to tolerate being spoken to rudely. In my case I'm simply not prepared to be patient with that.

Call it ego or whatever but it's really not about the information. I think I'm generally open to any point of view. But the delivery *does* matter to me obviously more than it does to you.

It's one the reasons you're DIR and I'm not. I was never able to tolerate the culture of verbal abuse and you were. I think we're quite different in this way.

R..

 

[boulderjohn]

I agree.

But whats funny is that everything being discussed is subjective. It is easy to post "Geee...noone should post controversial posts for newbies", but when you get to the details the issues that derail threads people complain about are the same details that would make the original suggestion unworkable.

I think I am talking more about simply agreeing to stick with the spirit and purpose of the specific forum, as described in its special rules, leaving othe discussions to other forums. One can make the argument that no forum should have special rules and intentions, the way I once thought this one did. I can see that point.

On the other hand, you yourself have argued otherwise. Here is a piece of a longer post that has your signature on it:

While the discussion of acknowledged variances in DIR practices is permitted, any non-DIR solutions provided will be moderated by the DIR Group Leaders. Continued attempts to provide non-DIR solutions will result in the removal of the offending user from this forum.

If you do not wish your question to be limited to DIR answer, please ask it in another applicable forum such as Technical Diving Specialties. If you want your question to have the DIR solution debated and/or compared to other dive philosophies, ask it in the general DIR forum or another applicable forum.

 

[Walter]

On page 22 another poster made a comment that indicated that he had formed a very strong opinion based on those first two pages only, before it became clear that the original position was controversial and long before there were 19 more pages of mind-numbing debate.

But the thread is only 5 pages long. Referring to page numbers is never helpful, different members have different settings on how many posts per page (mine is set on 50). Referring tp post number is better because those are the same for everyone.

My concern is when an experienced diver with a controversial position on an issue that no new diver asked about decides to initiate a thread in which that position is posited as if it were a clear and established view of the dive community. This will eventually be followed by page after page of the kind of exchanges Bob described. A reader who is willing to slog through 20 pages of such exhanges may get a balanced idea, but the typical reader new to diving who goes through only the first few posts will leave with the sense that this is how the dive community feels.

Why does that concern you?

I would hate to see that the anti-CESA point of view raised gratuitously in this forum, presented as important and established information for all new divers, so that all new divers question their instruction.

Why? How would that cause harm?

I just don't think the new divers and those considering diving forum is the place for ideologies to be promoted unsolicited.

Which party line should be allowed? Your thought processes here scare me. "Mamma knows best" is fine for children, not for adults.

it is sometimes disconcerting that because I am certified to teach by an agency, that everyone thinks they know how I teach and to what level....just because my agency does not dictate I MUST have a 100 hour course, I teach students to be unsafe.

I don't know of anyone who makes or implies such things. There are excellent instructors teaching wonderful classes in through agencies. I believe everyone is in agreement on this.

What is normally ignored it the fact that, just because, and I'll use the term, many, instructional businesses under the same auspices, cut corners, does not mean that we all do.

Are they cutting corners or are they merely following minimum standards without adding the extras to the class you add? If they are, indeed, cutting corners by not following minimum standards, that fault lies squarely with the instructor and that instructor should be reported ASAP. If on the other hand, they are cutting corners by following the minimum standards, the it's the agency that has cut corners, not the instructor.

I think I am talking more about simply agreeing to stick with the spirit and purpose of the specific forum, as described in its special rules, leaving othe discussions to other forums.

Leaving discussion to other forums is not in the rules.