Should Instructors be teaching with Air II (or similar) Alternates?

[Buoyant1]

Welcome to reality. It's there, people are buying them, so yeah! Better to teach someone HOW to use it then let them kill themselves and someone else!

Would I use one? No, I don't see it as being logical in emergency situations, which is usually when you're using it. But it's out there and you can't stop them.

 

[scubajcf]

LeisureTrends has identified that sales of Air2/Air 3/SSI are outpacing Octopuses apprroximately 2 to 1.

My observation: most rental gear is still configured using an Octopus.

Reality: Both options are widely accepted and in use.

It would be a disservice to the student and incomplete training for an instructor not to teach both types of Alternate Air Sources.

Simply put, when properly trained, both Alternate Air Sources have pros and cons, but in general, both devices provide a safety margin that is significant.

When improperly trained, both Alternate Air Sources provide a false sense of security.

Proper training complementary to these devices is gas management and buddy/team diving procedures. Generally speaking: I only wish as much time was spent on these practices as Alternate Air Sources.

Whether you own your own gear or rent your gear, at some point either you or your buddy will expose you to both types of Alternate Air Sources. Being familiar with both sources is vital. How an instructor demonstrates and utilizes these types is really a second concern to making sure he/she incorporates it into his/her lesson plan.

Of course, class and diver safety is always paramount.

jcf

 

[Thalassamania]

I think the entire discussion is a bit bizarre. If you surrender the primary then it makes not one whit of difference to anyone (except you) what sort of auxiliary you use. Each and every diver gets to go to hell in the hand basket of his or her choice, and that's the way it should be. The only merit to this discussion comes from the incredible stupidity exhibited by the diving industry's inability to standardize one of the most critical emergency procedure. That's about as dumb as it gets, akin to skydivers putting the ripcord in a different spot for each jump.

 

[Web Monkey]

Given
Of course, I'm always open to opposing views, so please share why you feel donating an airII type secondary is acceptable.

I think his post indicated he had an issue with donating the airII.

Me too. And I use one for classes.

Considering that pulling on an Air-2 will dump the owners BC and give away the inflator button, the donor would have to be on crack to donate an Air-2.

I cant believe anybody actually considers this an option.

Terry

 

[Air On]

I think the entire discussion is a bit bizarre. If you surrender the primary then it makes not one whit of difference to anyone (except you) what sort of auxiliary you use. Each and every diver gets to go to hell in the hand basket of his or her choice, and that's the way it should be. The only merit to this discussion comes from the incredible stupidity exhibited by the diving industry's inability to standardize one of the most critical emergency procedure. That's about as dumb as it gets, akin to skydivers putting the ripcord in a different spot for each jump.

Technology changes... people cried about the return hose being removed from the aqua lungs too I'm sure. How many held off on BCs and still favor a horse collar? Belt weights or integrated? Its all the same... know your gear, understand your buddies gear... then it doesn't matter.

I think it would be more similar to letting your buddy pack your chute for you.
Then they set it to open harder or softer then you are used to.
The air source doesn't move for the diver who's equipment it is.

How about the various ways people carry thier OCTOS? Dragging them (dumbs), in a collar at their neck (Cavers), With a gate clip on a ring, in a mouth piece sheath, on an elastic ring around the mouth piece, on a plastic trident clip, on a break away, with a snap strap, on a retractor... Even if its hung in a "traditional" location it can be hug in different ways you can't get free in a panic.

If you came up in a panic yanking at my hoses your likley to get kicked away or worse until I can manage you better. If your really freaking out you get to pass out, then I'll take you back to the surface and revive you... That way we are not both in trouble.

When you get air from me you don't just TAKE it. I give it to you.
Where I get it from matters not, because I am farmiliar with MY equipement.
You as the person needing air receive it the same way from me, handed calmy but quickly.

For the instructors and people that try to stuff the reg into the other persons mouth... You can put water in thier mouth and into thier lungs if they are not ready for the reg. I really don't think this practice should be taught or encouraged.

If you tried to shove it in my mouth, your likely to get a strong negative reaction from me on that too. Just hold it out and I'll calmly take it from you and insert it myself.

Personal... shouldn't you practice some OOA drills and signals with your buddies at least once a dive trip to stay farmiliar with it?

None of this might even be an issue at that point...

 

[Thalassamania]

Technology changes... people cried about the return hose being removed from the aqua lungs too I'm sure. How many held off on BCs and still favor a horse collar? Belt weights or integrated? Its all the same... know your gear, understand your buddies gear... then it doesn't matter.

I think it would be more similar to letting your buddy pack your chute for you.
Then they set it to open harder or softer then you are used to.
The air source doesn't move for the diver who's equipment it is.

The question is, "is your auxiliary your gear or your buddy's gear?"

How about the various ways people carry thier OCTOS? Dragging them (dumbs), in a collar at their neck (Cavers), With a gate clip on a ring, in a mouth piece sheath, on an elastic ring around the mouth piece, on a plastic trident clip, on a break away, with a snap strap, on a retractor... Even if its hung in a "traditional" location it can be hug in different ways you can't get free in a panic.

If you surrender your primary then the location and type of your auxuillary, "ain't nobody's business but your own."

If you came up in a panic yanking at my hoses your likley to get kicked away or worse until I can manage you better. If your really freaking out you get to pass out, then I'll take you back to the surface and revive you... That way we are not both in trouble.

If you come up to me (or any diver that I've trained) you will easily and comfortably receive a working regulator that will deliver air to you, end of story. What I do after that entirely depends on what rig I have chosen to use and, "ain't nobody's business but my own."

When you get air from me you don't just TAKE it. I give it to you. Where I get it from matters not, because I am farmiliar with MY equipement.
You as the person needing air receive it the same way from me, handed calmy but quickly.

If eveyone has been trained to receive the primary then there's going to be a lot less confusion and delay.

For the instructors and people that try to stuff the reg into the other persons mouth... You can put water in thier mouth and into thier lungs if they are not ready for the reg. I really don't think this practice should be taught or encouraged.

Never been a problem as far as I can tell. I suppose that with all the students you've taught you've seen it many times?

If you tried to shove it in my mouth, your likely to get a strong negative reaction from me on that too. Just hold it out and I'll calmly take it from you and insert it myself.

If you are my student and are performing a drill with no regulator in your mouth, and I decide that you should be using one of my auxiliaries, then I suggest that you'd be wise to do so. After all ... I do know best, and since we've practiced it often it should be no problem.

Personal... shouldn't you practice some OOA drills and signals with your buddies at least once a dive trip to stay farmiliar with it?

None of this might even be an issue at that point...

Do you spend much time teaching your Grandmother how to suck eggs?

 

[scubamama5]

The problem is not having a student learn how to use an octo. of course, all types of equipment should be introduced to students.. and yes, some Instructors believe to donate the primary is best..the doner then reaches for his/her Octo..when a student only trains to switch to their deflater (Air II type model).....How do they then know how to reach an Octo? When giving away their primary. Cool trick breathing off a deflator..Of course divers deserve to learn all types of equipment..based on where they plan to dive..could include dry suits ..Ike mentioned spare air? I've never outfitted my open-water students with one or a pony system for that matter. Open water still is only to 60ft with no overhead. Was speaking of open water students right?
As for the DM, he was the father of my student (I only met him that morning) he was trained elsewhere and bought his gear just before the trip.. had one deep dive under his belt, was when he qualified for his Advanced cert. Somebody trained him for rescue without training him in the use of multi types of gear.. how he'd ever save someone whose gear was different is beyond me.....Am saying he bought gear with no knowledge of how to use it. Like lots of divers..the story about the computer... not funny...cause it's so true. I do show my students my mae-west vest...and harness.. .my rubber suit desintigrated years ago.
Hey, I'm still teaching buddy breathing...just to let the student understand how tough it would be in an actual OAO situation.
(Ike) all ScubaPro dealers rent with integration and AirII's ? That's huge news..everywhere?
Not all dive centers with rental gear and not all charters with rental gear are ScubaPro.
Just my 2cents...again

 

[lowviz]

I personally think instructors teaching with only an Air II Alternate are not prudent instructors. What do you all think?

When I took my first breath underwater in my SP Knighthawk with AirII, I was only focussed on MY gear. There was only MY GEAR and scads of other strange stuff. I paid the money so that if something went wrong, an instructor would be right there to make it OK with whatever. My gear was just fine. Words were spoken and demos were done with AirII, necklaces, and Octos, I only heard AirII. Why confuse myself, this is serious stuff. I presume the rest of my classmates only heard Octo. I got used to AirII and back-inflate and really liked my gear, ignorant of the other choices. Dives passed, awareness increased, and I began to see other rigs and be curious about them. My point is that MY mind didn't open until sometime after my first cert. To this day, I can't tell you exactly what my first instructor was using. So to your question, I think that the instructor (if he/she is a good one) is fine for OW students as long as the other student rigs are getting the same quality instruction in their use. As long as the instructor donates the primary, the students shouldn't suffer, or even care. Forcing anyone to buy an AirII because that is the only way you teach? Stupid wrong. I don't dislike AirII for one big reason, it doesn't give you much of an option for what to donate. The primary, or risk the consequences. I consider myself to be reasonably generous, but I'm NOT giving three of my buoyancy controls away to a potentially panicked diver! In the here and now, I'm rarely found out of my LH BP/W, but my Knighthawk was just serviced and recently used...

 

[XXXL]

If everyone were taught to pass the primary (and I can see no reason why they should not be), then there would never be an issue of not being trained in standardized emergency procedures. It would be individual choice for your personal backup.

True, but look at how many other times this has been discussed on here & most people say they wont give away their primary. They usually come out with excuses like "why should I take my working reg out of my mouth & donate it".

In my opinion everybody should be taught to donate their primary. However it seems that only the tec courses teach this and I cant see it changing anytime soon

 

[24940]

In my opinion everybody should be taught to donate their primary. However it seems that only the tec courses teach this and I cant see it changing anytime soon

It's actually pretty common in OW courses.