Should instructors be required to be with a shop to be able to certify people?

[Rick Murchison]

i just fixed the post. the reason i'm asking this is because i've heard of a couple of stories of people getting screwed by instructors that are independent.

Ah, and there's part of the other side of the coin...
Part, because being affiliated with a shop (the way SSI does it) provides some protection for the student, and, in addition, (theoretically) assures that the instructor is in a formal quality control program.
No system is perfect, but personally I like the "shop affiliation" requirement.
Rick

 

[Web Monkey]

what agencies do not allow their instructors to work freelance?

SSI requires the instructors work though a shop.

While it takes away some autonomy, it also gives a measure of quality control, since the shop is less likely to allow an exceptionally bizzare or poor-quality instructor to continue work for them, if for no other reason, than liability.

Terry

 

[Jorbar1551]

Ah, and there's part of the other side of the coin...
Part, because being affiliated with a shop (the way SSI does it) provides some protection for the student, and, in addition, (theoretically) assures that the instructor is in a formal quality control program.
No system is perfect, but personally I like the "shop affiliation" requirement.
Rick

exactly what i think

 

[DiveSite]

Given the inherent conflict of interest, should instructors in the employ of dive shops, either directly or indirectly be trusted to certify people?

An equal conflict of interest could be perceived of independent instructors in that they would be pressured to pass a student or give the person a refund. i.e. if I contract with a plumber or mechanic or any tradesman and they don't finish the job to my satisfaction I expect some sort of refund. One only has to look at our public school system to see this on a much larger scale than learning to dive could ever be. The pressure by the government itself to pass students to the next grade before they are ready. We have kids graduating from High School that can't even read. To me that is a bigger problem than what is being discussed here. There has to be some level of presumption that an instructor, whether working for a store or independent has a level of professionalism that would keep them from just issuing cards. Oh well, just my $.02

 

[Jeff Toorish]

I'm about halfway through my SSI instructor training. I knew going in that I would have to affiliate with at least one LDS. I considered PADI because there is no affiliation requirement but eventually settled on SSI.

As you can imagine, for me, this thread has been very interesting to read, especially the comments that no "good" instructor would ever have to affiliate with an LDS.

Like many of us here, I have various certifications from various agencies having been taught by various instructors. Some instructors were better than others; in my case, all were certainly competent. I enjoyed working with some more than others and one or two have become friends (even the one I "killed" in basic cave).

I will say, affiliated or not, all my instructors have made suggestions about purchases of equipment, primarily because I asked them their opinion. Were they under pressure from the LDS to push some particular piece of gear? I have no idea, I do know that in most cases I was very happy with the eventual purchase. The simple fact is, most students are going to ask their instructor for advice on gear purchases. Will the LDS benefit, sure; but in my opinion, that is a good thing. If an LDS is really lousy, it is not going to last.

I've assisted in classes as a DiveCon and will eventually take on students of my own through the LDS I work with. In one or two cases, I have not agreed with policies of the LDS and said so. In every case that has sparked a discussion and examination of that policy. If anything, the other instructors and staff try to slow down training to ensure the highest level of qualification among the students. I have also seen on several occasions LDS staff try to talk someone out of buying some piece of gear because it was just the wrong thing, even knowing that would mean the loss of a sale.

As has been said so many times before on this board, it is not the shop, agency or any other factor that makes for good divers, it is the instructor. There are excellent instructors affiliated with dive shops and there are excellent instructors who are independent. There are also lousy instructors in both cases, the primary difference is the lousy instructors who are affiliated with an LDS have someone watching over them; that is not the case with the lousy independents.

Jeff

 

[DivingCRNA]

So, this is an SSI vs. everyone else thread?

 

[tc]

So, this is an SSI vs. everyone else thread?

Doubt it- Doesn't SDI also require instructors to affiliate?
Had a shop try to get me to cross over to them years ago- Soon as I found out I couldn't be independent I just laughed at him.

Tom

 

[Jorbar1551]

wasnt there another agency like nsds or something like that which required you to be part of a shop? obviosly is not doing business anymore, but it ssi and sdi seem to be doing pretty good at requiring there instructors to be afiliated with a shop.

 

[drbill]

Absolutely not. Some of the best instructors I know work for themselves rather than a dive shop. Most do private or small group lessons, some do tech training.

 

[Rick Murchison]

wasnt there another agency like nsds or something like that which required you to be part of a shop? obviosly is not doing business anymore, but it ssi and sdi seem to be doing pretty good at requiring there instructors to be afiliated with a shop.

SSI split from NASDS in '70. They rejoined in '98-'99 and decided to stay SSI instead of NASDS.
Shop affiliation is SSI's QA structure. SSI instructors get evaluated not only by student feedback to SSI but also by QA monitors at the shops. This is a good thing for students.
As for "instructor independence," SSI instructors have plenty of latitude within SSI standards to tailor their courses to meet local needs, and shop affiliation doesn't tie you down geographically if you want to be a "travelling instructor."
From my perspective the only impact of the shop affiliation is QA, and that's a good thing.
Rick