Should I get a package deal or not?

[stuartv]

Stuart have you have tried those Hollis Regs?

You seem to keep posting those regs based on their price. Price without value has no meaning.

When I recommend something 9/10 it is something I have tried and if I haven't I say as much.

I don't like the Hollis and as others have posted the quality is suspect compared to other brands. Everyone has their own opinion on gear, which is fine. A dive buddy of mine just picked up a set of hollis for doubles. I said don't, but he makes his own choices and I am fine with that. I guess I have more of an issue with you posting based on price and price alone, your posts never really offer a description such as I like it because, the one down side is, you can get instead, etc.

I do agree with Stuarts comments on buying a dive computer new, the warranty is important.

I do have 2 Hollis DC3 1st stages and 4 Hollis 212 second stages. I bought them all brand new, from my LDS.

I don't generally include comments like "I like them and here's why" because I don't have significant experience with anything else. When I post them, I always hope someone will comment on them that actually has experience with them and with other regs, so they can comment intelligently on how they compare. I.e. what would you really get by spending twice as much money.

I have not seen posts about suspect quality. Well, until the comment rhwestfall just posted about having plastic air barrels. That seems like a design issue, not a quality issue.

From my perspective, I've done almost 40 dives with mine (which I know is not a lot - part of why I don't generally talk about my experience with them). They seem to breathe well. I've had 2 dives out of 40 where I had an issue. 38F water and breathing really hard and I had 2nd stage freeflows. If you don't like Hollis regs, you'll probably take that as an example of why they aren't good. Personally, I took it as an example of I'm a new diver and I was breathing a lot harder than more experienced divers would be - in 38F water. I did a little research and talked to my LDS. I even had my LDS go through the regs to make sure there was nothing wrong with them - which there wasn't. The research I did seemed to indicate that if you really breathe it hard enough in cold enough water, you are at risk of getting any 2nd stage to ice up inside.

But, rather than talk about any of that - since I'm a new diver and have no significant experience with any other regs - I just post what seems like a good deal, on a product that I do use and like, from a shop that has a great reputation. The reader is free and encouraged to research the regs themselves and get opinions from people who know better than I do before buying them.

Like I said, the comment from rhwestall and now you are the first times I have ever noticed anyone saying anything negative at all about these regs. And that's including having done a number of searches here and on Google to learn about these regs before I bought mine.

 

[tbone1004]

I have linked to them several times. This is the first time somebody has actually shared this info about the 212. Thank you.

I have the DC3/212 setup myself. I like them just fine. But, I have dived them a few times in water that was 38 - 39F degrees. Most of those dives, they've been just fine. But, one dive, I had my primary 2nd start freeflowing. Another dive (the same day), the same thing happened and I tried to get it to stop while continuing with the dive. I was swimming really hard, following my instructor, and thus breathing really hard. On that one, when the primary started freeflowing, I switched to my secondary, kept swimming, and was turning the breathing effort adjuster knob down to try and get the primary to stop. While doing that (it was taking a while because that knob will turn a lot of turns before it really clamps down on the air flow), my secondary started freeflowing, too. So, both were freeflowing at the same time (at 60+ feet, in 38F water, with <5' viz). Fun! I gave up, signaled the guy behind me, and made an ascent at that point.

Were those two dives examples of why a plastic air barrel is not preferred for cold water diving? I was only aware of people preferring a metal air barrel because they don't breathe as "cold/dry" as plastic. At least, I think that's what I read.

Do you know if it's possible to change out the air barrel in a 212 to a metal one?

that'll do it, and no. I don't think Hollis has ever offered a metal barrel on their second stages.

Kharon, I wouldn't saw the 500SE is inexpensive... The Cressi's sure, but not that 500se, it's 2x the cost of the ac2/xs2 kit just for the second stage...

The point is not to buy expensive high end stuff. The point is to buy high value stuff. I.e. is the XS2/AC2 at $150 a better value than the Hog D1 at $230? It's $80 cheaper, but it's an unbalanced piston and non-adjustable second stage, that has basically no value in resale. Maybe $50? The Hog has a rotating turret allowing better hose routing, is a balanced first stage, has a metal air barrel, adjustment knob, and holds value at about $150 for a used set. Better value.

I buy Poseidon Jetstreams for about $150/set all the time, they are top of the line regs, horrible value new, fantastic value used. Apeks sets hang out around $600 for a doubles set vs. $1200 new, but they stay there, good value because if you get out of the sport, you won't lose money. Different way of thinking.

 

[beaverdivers]

Is it really worth it to get a package deal with a BC, reg, octo, and gauge console?

Yes, you can get quality gear & save money by buying a package. However, you need to be satisfied with the items that make up the package.

 

[CptTightPants21]

I do have 2 Hollis DC3 1st stages and 4 Hollis 212 second stages. I bought them all brand new, from my LDS.

I don't generally include comments like "I like them and here's why" because I don't have significant experience with anything else. When I post them, I always hope someone will comment on them that actually has experience with them and with other regs, so they can comment intelligently on how they compare. I.e. what would you really get by spending twice as much money.

I have not seen posts about suspect quality. Well, until the comment rhwestfall just posted about having plastic air barrels. That seems like a design issue, not a quality issue.

From my perspective, I've done almost 40 dives with mine (which I know is not a lot - part of why I don't generally talk about my experience with them). They seem to breathe well. I've had 2 dives out of 40 where I had an issue. 38F water and breathing really hard and I had 2nd stage freeflows. If you don't like Hollis regs, you'll probably take that as an example of why they aren't good. Personally, I took it as an example of I'm a new diver and I was breathing a lot harder than more experienced divers would be - in 38F water. I did a little research and talked to my LDS. I even had my LDS go through the regs to make sure there was nothing wrong with them - which there wasn't. The research I did seemed to indicate that if you really breathe it hard enough in cold enough water, you are at risk of getting any 2nd stage to ice up inside.

But, rather than talk about any of that - since I'm a new diver and have no significant experience with any other regs - I just post what seems like a good deal, on a product that I do use and like, from a shop that has a great reputation. The reader is free and encouraged to research the regs themselves and get opinions from people who know better than I do before buying them.

Like I said, the comment from rhwestall and now you are the first times I have ever noticed anyone saying anything negative at all about these regs. And that's including having done a number of searches here and on Google to learn about these regs before I bought mine.

I can see your point of view, but when people post about what equipment to buy and you post links with "for $700 you have XXXX" you are endorsing them as a personal recommendation. What you just posted above is generally what can be accompanied with them....I got them for a good price, have done 50 dives on them and like them, an issue in 38 degree water with both second stages free flowing, but overall I am happy with my purchase.

Just because a product is good for one person, doesn't mean it is right for others. I have breathed off an Atomic, thought it was fine and comparable to other high quality brands, but you will never see me recommend it to a cold water diver because it is a piston reg that needs to sealed.

I am not an expert by any stretch, but it is the personal experience and antidotes that add value and create discussion.

 

[rhwestfall]

Do you know if it's possible to change out the air barrel in a 212 to a metal one?

Stuart:

I don't know. You need to contact Hollis to see if they even have such a part. I have no familiarity with this reg, and in fact, it was another SB member that confirmed the air barrel material when this reg was discussed in another post. I had posted my personal criteria for a cold water regulator, and suggested the OP look further into this model as I couldn't find any information anywhere, including the manufacturer's site. Someone who had owned one (and whom I trust in their information) chimed in...

As an example of what other manufacturers have, the SP555 can have the S600 air barrel swapped into it thus it is a S600... As to the metal air barrel, it isn't an absolute solution, but further reduces the odds as it is a heat sink to the above-freezing water it is in contact with. I did manage to ff a SP G250V two weekends ago when I over-breathed it doing s-drills... as you too experienced, its fun when you have shut everything down, and your only "working" air source starts screwing with you at 125'....

 

[stuartv]

that'll do it, and no. I don't think Hollis has ever offered a metal barrel on their second stages.

Gotcha. Thanks.

I'm pretty sure you would have told me, if this were possible, but I'll ask anyway, just in case.

Looking inside an Oceanic Delta 4, it looks like it's basically the same reg as a Hollis 212. That's just by looks, eyeballing it, though. Does the Delta 4, or any other Oceanic 2nd, have a metal barrel that would work in the 212?


Also, since I'm still asking questions, is there anything "wrong" with the Hollis DC3? For that matter, is there anything else "wrong" with the 212 besides the plastic barrel make it not so great for cold water?

Like I said before, other than the 2 dives in cold water, I have been very happy with the Hollis regs. Even this explanation about the 212 does not make me want to replace them. Though another freeflow or two would. But, I am considering buy another 1st stage, so I can have a recreational/singles/travel reg set and a separate tech/doubles reg set. I was thinking of just getting another DC3-212 combo, since they are so inexpensive, giving me 2 complete reg sets plus 1 spare 212. But now you've got me thinking about getting something different...

---------- Post added August 6th, 2015 at 10:48 AM ----------

I can see your point of view, but when people post about what equipment to buy and you post links with "for $700 you have XXXX" you are endorsing them as a personal recommendation. What you just posted above is generally what can be accompanied with them....I got them for a good price, have done 50 dives on them and like them, an issue in 38 degree water with both second stages free flowing, but overall I am happy with my purchase.

I hear what you are saying. If I post about them again, I will include the extra info, like you pointed out. Or, from what Bob and Tom are saying, maybe I'll just quit posting about them. We'll see. I do still like mine so I probably would still point them out as an option - at least for people who aren't worried about using them in sub-40F water.

---------- Post added August 6th, 2015 at 10:56 AM ----------

I did manage to ff a SP G250V two weekends ago when I over-breathed it doing s-drills...

Thanks for that. It's good to know that my 212s aren't really doing anything that the "top of the line" stuff doesn't do, too. My LDS tech that looked at mine pretty much told me that I CAN overbreathe any reg and get it to ice up. It seems like you are basically confirming the same thing. Which helps me feel like I don't really need to list all my 212s on CL and rush right out to buy SP replacements.

I think I'm going to have earned my Master Scuba Diver card by November. It would be kinda cool to get to my 1 year anniversary of receiving my OW C card without having (or even wanting) to replace any of the initial gear purchases I made. I will feel like such a good li'l shopper! ;-)

 

[tbone1004]

I'm not an expert on the Hollis set, I don't like them, don't use them, and don't recommend them. I believe the 500se has a metal barrel, but it is unlikely the rest will. Your LDS is not entirely accurate, there are some regs that are basically impossible to ice up. I have yet to see a Poseidon Cyklon 300 ice despite people trying, not to say it hasn't happened, but it's highly unlikely.

Nothing wrong with the DC3, wouldn't recommend it for sidemount, wouldn't recommend it for doubles, wouldn't recommend it for singles, but that's only because it isn't a turret. DC1/212 is better, from a design perspective for backgas, and DC3 is better for stage/deco bottles. The Hog's have metal barrels, can be self serviced and have a training class, that puts them higher in the list despite being a few bucks more. The Dive Rite XT's have better CS, are a better design, reversible, and parts are easier to purchase putting them higher too.

Rationale is here.
Cave Adventurers sells more Hollis SM rigs than anyone else in the country by a large margin. They sell almost no Dive Rite gear anymore, and basically only the Hog regulators. The old Dive Rite regs were deemed not good enough, same with the Hollis regs, so they went with the Hogs. The new XT's have convinced them to be worth putting in a package deal with the SMS75 on the website. You can bet that Hollis has tried everything they can to get them to endorse their regulators, but they still dive Hog regs, and are not pushing the Dive Rites.

I don't dive either on a regular basis, I have an old set of Hog D1/classics that I use on my stage bottles, and a set of D2's on deco bottles, but those will be going away soon as I've swapped them with Poseidons out of personal preference, but if I were in the market right now for new regs, the Dive Rite XT's would get my nod, followed by the D1/Classics

 

[Damselfish]

The main thing going for packages is convenience. They may appear to save money but there's a good chance that won't be true in the long run, unless you'll be a very casual diver and not too fussy about what you're using. It's possible you can buy a package where you will be satisfied with all the parts of it and get a good deal you will be content with for awhile - but there are good odds you will find yourself not liking something and wanting to replace things before you know it, so it can be a false economy. Usually better to try and figure out what you really want and pick and choose. Buying used can certainly save you money, the tradeoff is more time and effort.

A lot of packages seem to be made up of lower end stuff to keep the price way down. Or stuff mostly from a single higher priced manufacturer, where a package may be the one of the few ways to get a discount on some brands - but you'll find you can go with other brands where the gear is as good or better and still not spend as much. Many packages also throw in assorted bags and accessories to make it look like you're getting a better deal. I would suggest not focusing on that stuff.

Some shops will let you create your own "package" and give a discount which can work better, but that still limits you to the gear sold by that one shop.


On the other hand, there's an argument that if you find an acceptable inexpensive package and you're saving lots each time by not renting, it can pay back quickly and you may not consider it a big deal if you want to replace things over time. You'll probably be getting in the water more and it will give you an opportunity to figure out what you really want.

 

[stuartv]

Another thing to know, not that I am promoting LeisurePro. But, if you are going to do mail order anyway (versus supporting your LDS), LeisurePro has a way on their website to choose a custom "package" of exactly what you want and submit it for a price quote.

I have not bought a package that way, but I have gotten a number of quotes on packages that way, just to "know" how much extra I was actually paying my LDS.

The LeisurePro custom package quotes are QUITE a bit less expensive than if you just price out a BCD, regs, etc., on their site and add them up. This was last year, but I think the typical package price from LP was about 30 - 40% less than the price of all the individual bits added up.

---------- Post added August 6th, 2015 at 12:09 PM ----------

Nothing wrong with the DC3, wouldn't recommend it ... because it isn't a turret.

I didn't want to keep being OT in this thread, so I just started another thread to specifically ask about the practical benefits of a swivel turret. I don't understand it.

 

[tbone1004]

shops like Cave Adventurers and Dive Right in Scuba will quote package prices as well. Dive Gear Express will not.