Should I be dead? (Last night's dive)

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And I hope that Asemili doesn't take my posts as a flame. I agree that coming forth with the incident for peer review and risking ridicule shows Asemili is on the right track in that regard.
The first thing I expected when I made this post was, "you don't know what your doing, you need more training, you screwed up and need to quit diving, I would never dive with you, you the kind of person that gives this sport a bad name" kind of stuff. So please, feel free to tear into me. I'm the only one who knows the accuracy of those statements and will not bother fighting them because it's just too much trouble. - which leads right into...

----PASSIVENESS-----
yes, I'm an extremely passive person. Maybe overly passive. I never thought about how that applies to my diving. It's something I will self-examine and work hard at adjusting. Thank you for pointing it out. That observation is gold.
I've recognized the fact that I'm passive for years. I react passively to anything I can. I do, however, have a track record of being the leader in most situations.
I was not in this situation because my buddies are both Master Divers, fixing to start on DM's, have done tons more than I have on diving, have far superior gear, and have 2x the number of dives I have. Plus they are both middle aged adults with families and are quite respectible people. There was alot of underlying phsycology here that contributed to my state, but I blame no one but myself for anything.

It's been said quite a few times: why didn't you just surface? You had plenty of air...
1. If you bring a tank back with less than 300 lb's, I belive they are supposed to do a visual. With that in mind, that's one good reason NOT to get down that low. At the very least it takes them MUCH longer to fill a tank that's brought back on empty.
2. If you get too low on air, you risk flooding your 1st stage - the o-ring might not have the amount of enough pressure to maintian a seal.
3. We had a 4 minute deco and a 3 minute staftey stop ahead of us that I knew of. I knew we had those ahead of us even though I didn't have a computer because of past -experience-. With the above two thoughts in mind, I treated it as an OOA situation. There aren't very many good excuses for actually running a tank dry, and breathing your tank dry on deco's and saftey stops is just pointless when you've got 2 buddies with 1500 lb's of air each.

Regarding the LP Octo-
I referred to the Octo as the reg I was breathing off of. I did indeed have my buddies primary and he was breathing from his LP hose stage. The issue in this case was: He's got the shortest freaking hose you can possibly get for his 1st stage because it makes breathing more comfortable on his jaw he says. Buddy breathing in this situation isn't much different than if I actually WHERE breathing from his LP octo. It's real tight in there.

Regarding not knowing the equiptment:
I've done buddy breathing ascents with him on 5 seperate occasions. I was versed in buddy breathing with him.
In retrospec, the thing we where doing more wrong than ANYTHING ELSE was making it a regular practice to buddy breath because of how efficient my buddies are with their air. I keep telling them it's got to have something to do with their high-end equipment, but they remind me that it took them quite a bit of practice to get it so effiecient.

We had just finished putting the gear together for a bail-out rig at the saftey stop but did not implement it for that dive since we had JUST finished it. In the future, we will at least already have a bail-out system readied.

We are all trained in the use of lift bags.

Quote: You should have just stayed at the surface instead of dumping your air

Quote: You should have put a plan together on the surface instead of dumping your air

I stress: I was not the dive leader. I was following the instructions of my more experienced buddies. It's hard to put down every detail of the dive in a post, but here's another piece of info to consider:
When I hit the surface:
1. I knew we had missed a deco. Not a saftey stop - a deco.
2. My buddy who I was breathing off of yelled at me, "GET BACK DOWN NOW!!!". He later stated that he should have said, "drop to 15'" The urgency made me dump my air without a plan.
3. My other buddy (who's profile is shown), came up under me and started yanking on my fins pulling me back down right as my head was breaking the surface.

Those 3 things meant: go down. sort if out later. Not chill out at the surface and chat about what to do.

Prior to any deep dive, we always, I stress ALWAYS do a double-buddy check, We each check each other over. Occasionally we'll find a problem (like an octo not positioned right) and correct it.

We ALWAYS cover emergency procedures, and have DAN's number in the hands of our surface support before we go down. We also always make sure our surface support (which we did not have, and don't even think about flaming me on that one) with what to watch out for and what they can do about (which is usually, "Call DAN").
Beyond emergency procedures, we cover contengicies. We have always said, repeatedly before any deep dive, "If we miss a saftey, drop back down to 15' and sit there for as long as your air will last you if you can.".

The point is, we aren't just running out and shooting down to 120' without a plan. We don't consider it terribly deep because we do it routinely. It's a matter of perception. Most people dont' care to do that deep for any number of reasons. The 1st few times I did it, I was a bit worried, but now it's second nature. The problems did not occur deep. As it was pointed out, the real problems didn't start until the last 20' or so when we shot up real fast.

It's been gone over and over by many - the 2nd drop was the big problem. I'll break down once more WHY we bounced down to 80'. It was not, by any means, any of our intentions.

1. During the ascent, I was disoriented. This was NOT because I was ascending at night. It was because I had just hit the surface when I thought I was at 60' - then got screamed at to drop like a rock, was getting my fins pulled at and was shoving an octo back in my mouth.

2. When I became disoriented, I did not belive I was descending - take careful note here. I was listening to my ears for indictations of descent. I felt NO SQUEEZE all the way to 80'. I can only think of the reasons and if you're experienced enough, you'll know why.

3. My buddies had taken charge and put me into Remorah/fetus mode. Being a person with a passive personality, I said, ok, until I RECOGNIZE A PROBLEM I will simply wait for some kind of info to come across my field of view to help. Maybe like a bottom contour for instance.

The point on not being trained for night ascents with buddies is very very important. That's a post that shows someone who not only understands and identifies with the situation, but can offer an explantion. Only a very experienced and wise person can make that observation. My hat's off to you!

I think that's about it. And if any of you think a similar situation is not something you would ever be in because you are careful enough to put get in it in the first place, then the chance is likely that you may experience something simiar someday.

As I see it, it was a learning experience, and I'm taking it very very serious.

Btw, most of you aren't familiar with the Texas Highland lakes. Where I was diving, visibility is less than 6'. I prefer diving in low vis at night because the lights help illunimate things better and assist in providing a better, clearer field of vision. Either way, such low vis can easily result in miscommunication.
In the case of my miscommunication, it came because I was holding the light on my hand in front of my buddies mask so he could make it out through the silt we had knocked off treelimbs.

Overall, I'm glad we are all ok, and am certainly going to take steps to work on the lessons learned that you aren't taught in class, and also take the time to review things I had covered in the past, but use very little.
 
asemili once bubbled...
yes, I'm an extremely passive person. Maybe overly passive. I never thought about how that applies to my diving.
~~~snip~~~
but I blame no one but myself for anything.
It is merely a personality trait (one that many folks would find pleasing... especially in social situations.)

You mentioned leadership. Passive folks can actually perform better as leaders in normative situations that assertive folks.

Since you recognize it in yourself you should be able to take steps to develop an alternate approach for emergency situations.

When the chips are down passivity becomes a fault... it takes assertivenss.

This will be out of character for you... especially when diving with more experienced divers... however it is something that you should work on together with your dive buddies. Explain this to them and ask for their thoughts.
 
I am a glider pilot as well as a diver (gliding scares me a LOT more - and has killed more of my friends).

We have a training manual called "Accident Prevention Manual for Glider Pilots" by Thomas Knauff and Doris Grove.

This deals entirely with judgement, attitude, stress management and hazardous thought patterns. It is entirely applicable to diving and I would recommend reading it. Hopefully one day scuba training will get a little more sophisticated and really deal with these issues. I am not holding my breath as I look at the current sausage machine.

The following is a brief review:

....................................................

Several years ago, the FAA, along with the Canadian Air Transport, Embry Riddle University, Ohio State University and GA Aviation Manufacturers did a study to see if judgment training could enhance aviation safety.

The result was a Judgment Training Manual For Power Pilots. The FAA then asked Tom Knauff & Doris Grove to adapt this manual for the soaring community.

The first edition was titled "Judgment Training Manual For Glider Pilots." This closely followed the FAA manual, and was difficult to read and more complex than necessary.

Tom and Doris rewrote the manual and retitled it "Accident Prevention Manual For Glider Pilots." This is one of the most important safety manuals ever written and is highly recommended reading for all glider pilots. It will affect how you think and behave when flying a glider, operating a chain saw, or driving a car.

..................................................

It can be purchased here:

http://www.eglider.org/catalog/items/item100.htm

I hope this helps a little.

EDIT: It is $12.95 so it could be a very good investment.
 
dc4bs once bubbled...
I dunno if I'd go that far. Maybe if I didn't like them or they were really annoying... :wink:

OK maybe that was a touch harsh :wink:

I took UP's question to mean if the person was chronically hopeless (SOP) in tough situations. If there seemed to be some hope for eventual change (and if they weren't annoying :D ) I might stick around and work with them some more.

Asemili- I'm also not trying to beat on you or anything. Just posting thoughts I hope will help you in some way.

When you're diving, it would be beneficial to not get into the mindset of being a "follower". Think of yourself as a co-leader. I don't care who I'm in the water with. If I don't like something about a dive, I'll call it, and I don't give a rats arse what anyone thinks.

Scott
 
So glad to hear that the 3 of you survived (some luck) and avoided being crippled (lots of luck!).

Please, oh please, for the sake of your families and friends who love you and would be torn up when you don't survive or avoid serious injury the next time that such an incident WILL occur. . .

Start over from the very beginning and learn everything correctly and thoroughly, including the consequences of not following established safety procedures. Not so much that you need to buy additional training, but you need to re-read your Open Water training manual. You need to dive repeatedly with a GOOD and SAFE buddy or instructor and DO what he/she says--exactly what is said.

Build slowly on relaxed successful dives and learn to NAIL your skills, and as Mike F suggested--practice the skills in mid-water, upright, horizontally, even upside down, with neutral buoyancy and awareness of where you are in the water column. And if you plan to get in the water with those other 2 again, take (or retake) a Rescue class.

Which one of the 3 was I addressing here? Every one of you!

Now, get out there and have some fun diving (while re-learning the basics).

theskull
 
asemili,

I like to re-emphasize the issue of narcosis. While you seem to be addressing all the other good suggestions here, other than mentioning that you where probably narced, I don't see you mention that you will address this issue. Narcosis is a danger thats accepted by many without realizing how serious this can be. It is generally accepted that many, or perhaps even the majority of diving accidents start as a minor problem that is not properly handled. This leads to a chain of events of increasing complexity where some wrong decisions continue to be made. Narcosis undoubtedly plays an unknown but significant role here, maybe more than we care to believe.

I question your following statement:
It was nice and calm. I was keeping an eye on my air (started with 3K) and when I reachd about 1500 we started setting up for our ascent. We began our ascent and slowly started surfacing. Somehow between 120' and 60' when I looked at my console, I was down to about 500 lbs
Looking at the dive profile graph you attached. Granted that it's not your own, but you claim it should be very close to your actual profile. You took about 5 min to descend to 100 ft Then spent 9 min from 100 ft to 120 ft, for a total dive time of 14 min in which you used 1500 psi. Your ascent from 120 ft to 60 ft took 5 min. in which you used 1000 psi. Unless you had a gear malfunction causing some air loss, or a higher breathing rate for whatever reason, neither of which you mentioned, your judgement of time and events from the moment you noticed 1500 psi to the next gauge check where you noticed 500 psi is likely incorrect. The assumption that you began ascent soon after "setting up" to ascend is made. Which appears to not have been the case. You appear to have lost track of your dive time and gas supply.

Aside from all the issues which should be addressed here before diving. In my opinion the "in dive" catalyst causing the chain of events you describe was probably narcosis.

There's a fine line between accepting a little narcosis and the point of no return. Believing anyone can make the correct judgement of when "enough is enough" while narced is simply an illusion. Denial is also a symptom of narcosis.

Nothing personal here. You are obviously open minded to constructive criticism. Take care.
 
pipedope once bubbled...


Gee, I guess I don't know anything about this stuff at all.
Not like I have been diving since 1978.
Not like I dive both for fun and to make a living.

Now to sum up.

My point with the commercial diving example was that you are bent the instant you hit the surface. Bouncing back down is MORE likely to cause a bend than staying on the surface to sort out the problems.

Sure, there are lots of gaps in our understanding of DCI but there are some things that we know.

A BOUNCE DIVE AFTER A DEEP DIVE IS VERY DANGEROUS!

Now tell us, what exactly would you do?

I'd have stayed on the surface, got started on O2, monitored for signs of DCI, and when any were to have manifested themselves, have gotten help. What else?

As for the rest:

1. I'm an instructor.

2. Navy tables seem to work, yes... for navy seals. Where I come from (Belgium if you must know), two agencies used the bloody things as standard tables. Their divers exhibit the highest percentage of DCI cases imaginable. How's that for tried and tested.

3. Man, if even DAN admits to knowing next to nothing, maybe you should share your vast knowledge with them, why don't you?
 
about my post?

You are recommending the SAME THING I was.

Stay on the surface until the situation is fully under control.
If there is missed deco, decide if it is better to go back down and complete the deco or stay on the surface. This is NOT a slam dunk question. However in this case the low gas supply argues for staying on the surface.

My point from the commercial diving procedures is that there is TIME to sort things out on the surface without major risk from DCI.
His buddies overreacted to the missed deco stop

Again, the bounce was the most dangerous part of the whole incident, especially as it was uncontrolled.

Hey, if you are pushing the tables to the limit, somebody is going to get bent. But that is not the issue in this case.
 
"The point is, we aren't just running out and shooting down to 120' without a plan".

You have to plan your gas consumption/supply. After all, that is the bottom line when you are beyond CESA depths: do I have something to breathe?? You should have had way more gas (in this case, air) and probably an oversized tank plus redundency.

An Al 80 pressurized to 3000 and not including the loss from cold water, in 120 feet of fresh water (forget altitude of your Highland Lakes) is going to last 20 minutes if you have a 0.8 ft3/min SAC rate (depends on many things but that would be a good rate for a 50 dive person). BUT obviously you will use more under stress conditions. And that is sucking it dry with no plan for safety/deco stops. You must also allow for delays, overexertion, possible entanglement, currents, leaks, etc. And there was NO plan if YOU have to give air to YOUR buddy. Rescue divers will be mad at you. Technical divers on this site will tell you to use the Rule of Thirds.

Forget about worrying about the tank being vized and the O-ring on the first stage failing (??). You were worrying about nonsense things when the most important thing was not planned for.

You did and your buddies did things that were right, some things not so right. But not having enough planned air WILL kill you. I once jumped in the water with about 1000 psi in double 80's for an 110 foot dive. After a reasonably nice dive, I discovered I didn't have quite enough gas (narced like you). So I waived goodbye to my buddy and started a 60 ft/min free ascent (I have the profile). As I reached the 10 foot depth, my Aladin computer unexpectedly flashed an 8 minute deco stop at 20 feet at me!! I turned south and went to and down the ascent line. I asked the four people on the line at 15 feet, one after another, to share air, and they all turned me down!! At 20 feet, the fifth guy was very big and couldn't reach his pony (which I couldn't see behind him) to turn it on. Luckily the sixth guy, who will forever be my friend, saw me coming, and was in a generous mood! He passed me his Octopus just as I exhaled my last breathe - and the purge stuck!

Well, I didn't grab his primary, but I didn't politely ask and wait for it either. So now I do my gas planning with lots of reserve.
Later, he told me his Jetstream purge was "sticky". Thanks for sharing! Actually, I have one now, and it just takes a strong push.

Now please, asemili, go take the Rescue course and also a Technical course and you will be on the way to being wiser.
 
asemili once bubbled...

It's been said quite a few times: why didn't you just surface? You had plenty of air...
1. If you bring a tank back with less than 300 lb's, I belive they are supposed to do a visual. With that in mind, that's one good reason NOT to get down that low. At the very least it takes them MUCH longer to fill a tank that's brought back on empty.
2. If you get too low on air, you risk flooding your 1st stage - the o-ring might not have the amount of enough pressure to maintian a seal.
3. We had a 4 minute deco and a 3 minute staftey stop ahead of us that I knew of. I knew we had those ahead of us even though I didn't have a computer because of past -experience-. With the above two thoughts in mind, I treated it as an OOA situation. There aren't very many good excuses for actually running a tank dry, and breathing your tank dry on deco's and saftey stops is just pointless when you've got 2 buddies with 1500 lb's of air each.

My .02
I say this realizing that hindsight (as well as armchair quarterbacking) is 20/20...but are you really making safety decisions based on not hurting your gear?

Yes gear is expensive, yes I'm careful with it, and yes I'd trash it in a heartbeat if it was a toss up between it and me.

As far as your diving your buddies computer (you weren't even riding your computer...but someone elses!)

If you don't have a computer....dive tables, if you want to dive using a computer buy a computer....there is really no way around that...not having the cash is a dumb justification when you're dead.

Glad to hear that you're safe and sound.

Peace,
Cathie
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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