Should C-Cards Expire?

[sheck33]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...
The reality of the Scuba situation in the United States is that C-Card requirements are strictly enforced not by law, but by industry standards and practice. It isn't the law (thank God!) that requires a C-card to get air and equipment.............

I have NEVER in any shop, or when buying online, been asked a C card when buying any equipment. When diving abroad i had to show a C card to go diving. I have never, in the US, been asked for a card when getting a tank filled except maybe one time for getting a nitrox fill. Shops are far more interested in a sale than whether the buyer is a certified diver or not.

 

[MikeFerrara]

My insurance company and the agencies I am affiliated with require that I only sell gas (for diving) to certified divers. If I don't know a person I ask for a card.

There are no such requirements of me for equipment sales. Your uncertified freind or relation can come into my shop and buy you a reg or bc for your birthday. They, however can't stop by to get your tanks filled for you.

I will sell a tank without seeing a card but it will be empty.


Now then, We will not rent equipment to a diver without seeing a card even though we will sell it to them.

 

[pt40fathoms]

I can see where you are drawing a parallel, but the similarities are week and don't hold up to closer scrutiny. The only person you are putting in danger with a lack of skills would be yourself. That is of course as long as no one puts themselves in danger trying to rescue you.

Drivers’ licenses however should expire, and retesting should be mandatory at certain times. I'm sure the families of those who died in the Farmers Market in Florida would not be morning the loss of loved ones had the 86 year old man been tested.

 

[H2OHead]

I vote for who cares if open water related cards expire or not. If all of mine expired last night I wouldn’t be on the phone trying to figure out how to renew them. I’ve been asked for a card once in my life at a shop for air. I was prepared for that though, I’d recently moved into town and it was the first time I entered the shop so I just happened to have my dive notebook in my truck. I’d say that the probability of needing one as proof of training is about nil. You do need C cards in Florida if you want to dive certain non-open water places like Florida State Parks and it wouldn’t matter to me if we had an expiration date on those. The only snag I see is taking a written recertification test from an agency that one may have obtained a certification from, but no longer agrees with the ideology of that certifying agency.

I don’t see any parallel to the biannual recert for pilots. The FAA is a governmental regulatory body whereas diving is a self policing sport. There are no annual inspections, TBO’s, or anything similar in diving and there shouldn’t be. If I maintain my own gear and have determined it’s safe to dive, then it is. Certifying agencies and shops shouldn’t have any input about the dive-worthiness of my gear. The only input a shop should have over my personal readiness is the condition of a cylinder. Just as Ace Hardware gets to determine the state of my propane cylinder each time I get gas for the grill, a shop certainly has the right and need to ensure my cylinder is capable of safely transporting the intended gas. Nothing is in place to stop an untrained person from buying gear over the ‘net, filling tanks in his garage, and diving whenever he wants and as long as the procedure satisfies the regulatory requirements for the gas and the cylinder involved, I couldn’t care less what they guy does in his garage.

 

[TX65]

I voted to leave the system the way it is and honestly this poll and the routine comments about LDS cause me to pull out my soap box. Yes, I will chap an instructor or two and maybe an LDS with what I have to say.

Lets look at what a c-card is.

A scuba c-card is a document that states that you have completed a defined set of training on a specific date. It is best compared to receiving a certificate from a driving school saying you completed a driving class. It is not a govt issued license like those issued for driving, flying or being a doctor.

Now about training and instructors -

While most scuba courses take place over several weeks, the material can be covered and understanding can be demonstrated in far less time. 24 hours of instruction is still 24 hours of instruction whether you do it in 8 three hour sessions or in 3 eight hour sessions.

I have seen people people in Florida be able to take the full O/W course and Advanced O/W Course in a matter of 2 weeks including doing all the dives. If they really want to, they could take the rescue diver and divemaster courses and be done in a bit longer.

Then there are respected dive training places that will take a person from zero to to instructor in a matter of a few months including doing all the dives and assisting in teaching courses. Quite honestly, in a place like Florida, the only thing that slows down becoming an instructor is doing the teaching assistance duties which are really controlled by the schedules of the students.

Now these instructors or divemasters have their c-cards, they took the full courses with no reduction in material or classtime, did their dives and they are now "experts"

I always pause when I walk into a LDS and see a 20 year old instructor who believes that card makes them an expert that should be listened to blindly. Politely I say "right".

Honestly, the only reason I have never become a divemaster or instructor is I am not interested in pay $500 or more a year for liability insurance.

Want to require some organizational requirement for diving experience or retesting, fine, but the bar better be raised on the people called instructors. Otherwise, it will be viewed as another attempt to pay another dollar.

Now on to the LDS and them having an attitude when people comparison shop or bring gear in for maintance that was bought elsewhere through another LDS or mail order.

Why do people take a class at a LDS? More often then not, it is because of conveinence to be able to take the course and have it logistically fit into their normal routine. Ever heard the term Location, Location, Location?

Why should people buy equipment at an LDS? it should be because that LDS has earned and does not violate the customer's trust. Treat the customer with attitude and you should expect them to never grace your establishment again.

Here are some example that have occured to me in the past 2 weeks.

I was interested in a piece of equipment made by a manufacturer which a LDS proudly represents. They didnt have it in stock so I was told I could pay $X (MSRP), shipping and sales tax. Of course, I was also told that if it didnt fit and I needed the other size, I would have to pay return shipping and restocking on the one going back plus shipping on the replacement which I will pay $X (MSRP).

Next, I went to another LDS that is a dealer that sells and stocks Riffe spearguns to get some replacment bands for mine. They ordered some JBL bands (I own a Riffe, not a JBL) and I explained to them that I told them they are for a Riffe. They went into overdrive to gain my business, but wanted to charge me MSRP, plus shipping, plus tax on the correct ones.

Needless to say, I did not make a purchase at either LDS nor will I grace their establishments or tell anyone to shop there.

Quick business lesson -

MSRP is the Manufacturers suggested retail price that is supposed to allow a dealer to pay the manufacturer, SHIPPING and STOCKING fees and make a margin.

Now to show you I am not a A--.

I needed my regs overhauled and went to another LDS. Even though the LDS said they are not a dealer for the brand, they could get it done properly. They sent the regs to another LDS out of state who is major service center for the brand and had it done right. What did it cost me, exactly the same had I walked into the out of states LDS front door.

Can we say, that the LDS has a new customer. Honestly, they would have earned future business if they directed me to the out of state major service center/ LDS.

As far as LDS who have an attitude about people comparison shopping, make them an offer, if they can find a better total price from an LDS or reputable mail order place, you will match it with a smile.

Have an attitude toward the customer and watch them walk away.

I am actually very loyal to some LDS even though I have moved around. I often call different LDS's in Miami, Virginia and Louisiana and give them the opportunity to have the sale. Sometimes they get my $$$, sometimes they dont, but they never have an attitude about it and usually welcome a call from an old customer who remembers them.

 

[MudDog]

Does anybody else feel like they have had it up to their eyeballs with "legislation"?!? I don't want to sound preachy, but what the hell...as I said in an earlier post, it is time for people to start taking responsibility for their own actions.

I mean wake-up, cigarettes are bad for you...smoke them and there is a litany of bad things that will happen to you.

MacDonald's coffee really is HOT...don't pour it in your lap.

Fast food is high in fat...eat it all the time and yes you will eventually gain weight and likely increase your cholesterol, etc...

Are some of us just that much smarter that we realize this stuff?!?

These other people claim they didn't...they litigate, make a revolting amount of money and the rest of us get stuck paying for their stupidity through increased insurance costs, increased taxes and increased product cost (someone has to pay for those new, endless warning labels).

Cert cards are like college diplomas...they say you took some standardized course and passed it. What you do with the knowledge and skills is up to you. (perhaps some feel we should re-test to maintain our undergrad and post-grad degrees as well).

I can guarantee, if re-certs or mandatory reviews were put in place there would be endless complaints and criticisms about agencies squeezing them for more money.

Ultimately people must stop looking for baby-sitters to tell them what to do and be responsible for themselves. Hey, if you are not comfortable with your skill or have not been diving in a while a refresher course is an outstanding idea! Most organizations have these courses available. But stop asking others to legislate what you are capable of doing for yourself.

Thank you (stepping off soapbox).

 

[DA Aquamaster]

It's a good point that the scuba industry is self regulated. But while I am opposed to both government regulation and an industry required c-card recertification, I'd choose an industry imposed recert over a law requiring it any day. At least if I violate an industry standard, it's my business. However, if it's a law that I need a current C-card, I'll get ticketed and fined for diving without a current C-card every time a game warden or coasty pulls up to my dive flag.

The only thing that will prevent the eventual arrival of government regulationis a low accident record. If too many people get hurt, big brother will eventually step in to save the idiots out there from themselves and inconvienece the rest of us in the process. Thinning the herd has it's advantages but it will never be politically correct nor will it be public policy. From that point of view I can understand where the discussions about recertification are coming from.

I also have to say I am a lot less concerned about a diver who took a decent and comprehensive OW course 20 yrs ago and took 10 years off from diving than I am about a recent OW student who certified last week. I have seen very marginal students who pass the agency certification standards during their 4 check dives but are in no way safe to dive. The training requirements for an OW diver have been relaxed to the point where almost anybody can pass and things that used to be important like whether they are competent swimmers, physically fit, etc count for nothing. But lets be honest, dumbing down the standards to enable nearly anyone to get a C-card has been very good for business.

It would seem to me that the more logical answer to the problem of keeping accident rates low and keeping big brother out (with the side benefit of protecting reefs from unskilled divers) would be to tighten the training requirements for new students. But this would potentially deprive the various training agencies of profits, particularly if one agency set higher standards while the others sucked up all their reject students and those afraid of failing the higher standards. So from an industry standpoint, the answer is to require a recert that in and of itself can become yet another lucrative profit center.

Neither government regulation nor expiring c-cards are attractive but I see one or the other as innevitable as the recreational training agencies involved have not exactly demonstrated a willingness to sacrifice profits in order to ensure a high standard of initial dive training.

 

[zeN||]

Absolutely not with every new regulation in society so goes our freedom, the nice thing about diving is it doesn't suffer fools for long and besides, worms have to eat zeN||

 

[MudDog]

zeN||...Outstanding!

with every new regulation in society so goes our freedom

A slippery slope indeed!

 

[Rick Murchison]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
As I understand it, SSI instructors are required to teach through a shop though. That's something I probably won't ever do again. IMO, instruction being tied to equipment sales is a bad thing.

As an SSI instructor I must be "affiliated" with a shop - that's quite different than being "required to teach through a shop." The affiliated shop is where my monitor is - the guy responsible for keeping an eye on my instruction, and where I get my teaching supplies and where I get my students' C-cards. I am perfectly free to procure my own students and teach off-site. Certainly the SSI structure is designed to promote the LDS' survival and the scuba industry as a whole - and that includes equipment sales. But in my case, for example, I'm not a salesman per se - though I do recommend that my students buy through the shop. However, the characterization of "instruction being tied to equipment sales" is innacurate at best and misleading. It would be fair to say that SSI instructors promote equipment sales. But at the shop where I am affiliated we instructors have never turned anyone away because they've bought all their stuff elsewhere.
Rick