Shark kills Diver

[Instrdarkside]

I have been on many dives where sharks have been sited and video was even shot. Facts are that sharks aren't known to stop swimming so when they swim by you chances are they will return because your probably in there territory. Unless they've been baited there unnaturally.
In this case they are at an increased agitated state because of there feeding habits when blood and food are in the water with them. It is truly a shame when anyone dies for any reason and all kinds of excuses can be given as to why this happened, but the truth is it was simply a matter of time. It is a proven fact that humans are not known as a natural food source for sharks, and for the most part being bitten by a shark is usually do to the misjudgement that we are a food source. But when blood is in the water a shark is in a feeding FRENZY and nothing in the water with it is safe. So I believe it is necessary for people to stand against these operations that chum consecutively to attrack tourists and sea life it is a bad mix.

 

[Cudabait]

Please,site your references.

Regards,

Hi Scubadale:

I have made a fair number of shark dives in places like the Galapagos, Polynesia, Marquesas, Bahamas, and Guadalupe, and have not seen the "dog pack" behavior you describe. Even on baited dives the sharks I have seen are remarkably controlled: they are interested in the bait, not munching on divers who may be photographing or observing them. They will frequently pass very close and sometimes bump, but I have not seen any aggression towards divers. It may happen, but I have not witnessed this behavior an any of my dives.

As Dhaas notes above, there are literally thousands of divers who take part in shark dives every year around the world, and the attacks (bites/dismemberment/deaths) are simply not there. People are sometimes in the wrong place at the wrong time, and this appears to be what happened to Mr Groh. It is a tragedy, but so is stepping of a curb and being killed by a car, which is a statistically much greater possibility.

I believe this was posted on an earlier thread, but:

Odds of being a victim of a shark attack are 1 in 8 million.
Odds of dying from a fall down the stairs are 1 in 200,000.
Odds of dying from a wasp, bee or hornet sting are 1 in 5.9 million.
Odds of dying from a lightning strike are 1 in 4.3 million.
Odds of drowning in bathtub are 1 in 800,000.
Odds of dying from an adverse reaction to antibiotics 1 in 7 million
Odds of being killed in a motor vehicle accident 1 in 6,000.

Regards,

Dan

 

[peterbj7]

Peter, you may have 2000 dives in San Pedro and your opinion is just that, one opinion. No statistical proof of shark dive sites drawing and keeping sharks at one spot increasing any risk of encounters nor actual attacks exists

You're right, I have no statistical proof. Nor do I have proof that sticking my head in a gas oven is likely to kill me, but it seems a reasonable deduction from the facts available.

Why do you suggest I have 2000 dives in San Pedro? I can see no evidence supporting that statement. Are you trying to make some sort of point? If so, can you elucidate please?

I actually have almost 3000 dives, of which maybe 700-800 are in San Pedro. The rest are all over the world, with at least 1200 being cold water dry suit dives. Probably 400 were dives other than recreational. I have done many dives with sharks, both here and elsewhere. I know people who have been attacked/mauled by sharks, and in all but one case there was blood in the water when they were attacked. I have not so far been injured by a shark, though I have had to fend them off several times.

 

[peterbj7]

Odds of being a victim of a shark attack are 1 in 8 million.
Odds of dying from a fall down the stairs are 1 in 200,000.
Odds of dying from a wasp, bee or hornet sting are 1 in 5.9 million.
Odds of dying from a lightning strike are 1 in 4.3 million.
Odds of drowning in bathtub are 1 in 800,000.
Odds of dying from an adverse reaction to antibiotics 1 in 7 million
Odds of being killed in a motor vehicle accident 1 in 6,000

I have a major problem with statistics quoted either invalidly or without the context that is necessary for them to be meaningful. In general you haven't defined the population the sample was taken from, a common error amongst people who don't understand statistics, and what you have said is meaningless. Just a few examples from your list:-

• odds of dying from a lightning strike - is this amongst people who have been struck, or amongst anyone who put themselves in a position where they MIGHT have been struck. Unless you're claiming that only 1 out of 4.3m people struck by lightning died from it (which seems remarkably low) your statement is utterly meaningless
• I know many people who don't possess a bathtub, but instead use a shower. Does this 1/800000 apply to them? Or does it only apply to people who have bathtubs? What about people who possess bathtubs but choose to shower instead? And of course, does someone who follows Queen Elizabeth I's statement that "I bathe once a year whether or not I need it" run the same risk as someone who bathes every morning and night?
• as regards shark attacks, who makes up the 8m? Does that include non-divers? If it's only divers, does it include people who never dive anywhere near sharks (eg. lake divers)? Amongst those who have dived in the vicinity of sharks, is it related to the number of dives each person has made?

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. Never quote statistics unless you're ready with all these sorts of answers, AND those answers stack up. Otherwise you are talking gibberish.

 

[dhaas]

peterbj7,

First, my previous post was not to question your lifetime of diving nor where you made those dives. I mistakenly assumed since you list San Pedro that is where you are currently. So apologies if any offense was taken....

While I don't doubt you have seen sharks maul fellow divers if you say so, I guess I wonder what condition had actual blood in the water (spearfishing?)

I concur with your statistical sampling size question, however the one statistic people want to cite but refuse to believe as it affects DIVERS is Dr. George Burgess who collects shark attack data worldwide. And the vast majority are NOT on divers! Since these actual statistics don't support divers being at risk, no matter if chum is in the water or feeding is happening as I stated all the world (not just in the Bahamas) yet we don't have actual documented attacks on divers why isn't the conclusion it is obviously not an increased risk? I am always amazed by Dr. Burgess himself citing he "thinks" shark dives increase risk, but has no conclusive data in his own reports to prove it! I'm sure he's a very nice man, and has made a life gathering and compiling and who knows what with the very detailed reports of attacks.....

Everyone wants to keep drawing "logical" conclusions to support their side yet the only actual statistics don't support the "fear factor".....

If we go on facts as in your last post. people all over the world enter the ocean every single day. Sharks are everywhere yet we have a miniscule amount of attacks on humans. I think that is the most significant fact of all.....

People will believe what they want to, and that's fine. I just wish they wouldn't try and scare people without some facts to back it up.....

To each his own

dhaas

 

[seaducer]

I am always amazed by Dr. Burgess himself citing he "thinks" shark dives increase risk, but has no conclusive data in his own reports to prove it! I'm sure he's a very nice man, and has made a life gathering and compiling and who knows what with the very detailed reports of attacks.....

Everyone wants to keep drawing "logical" conclusions to support their side yet the only actual statistics don't support the "fear factor".....

Well, personally I think it is obvious shark dives put divers at an increased risk of bite/attack. But that is only because you are putting sharks and people together, you can not have a shark attack unless sharks and people are together. The average dive at the average site in any area the odds of encountering a shark are much smaller than at those sites where sharks are fed.

Yes, the fact that there has been no increase in attacks is very telling. While people like Peter make a seemingly valid point, the facts just do not support their conclusions and while they sound good, their arguements are in fact empty of evidence.

What amazes me is why do people not see the total number of shark/human encounters that do not result in a bite as proof that sharks are not as dangerous as many people believe?

I have read too many posts on this board that sound straight out of the 1970's with regards to what we know of shark behavior. The feeding frenzy where nothing in the water is safe from ravenous bloodthirsty sharks has been shown a fallacy decades ago, yet the misconception is still alive and well in a group of people who should be in a position to know better. sigh.

 

[peterbj7]

We have politicians in Europe, and possibly in the USA, who make all sorts of assertions on the basis that there is no evidence to counter them. Examples are:- eating beef is safe; eating raw eggs is safe; there is absolutely no risk of contracting HIV from normal social interaction with someone with HIV/AIDS; there is no risk to people or the environment from growing/eating genetically modified crops; etc.

The issue is not whether these activities are safe or dangerous but that the politicians have absolutely no way of knowing either way, because insufficient evidence has been gathered. In one way this runs counter to my claim that chumming/feeding sharks is likely to make the oceans more dangerous for humans, but more significantly it renders a claim that this is NOT the case as false for lack of evidence.

When evidence is sparse or non-existent it is up to individuals to reason it out for themselves and make their own decisions. There's nothing else they can do. My view, and that of many other people but evidently not everyone, is that such behaviour is LIKELY to create more dangerous situations. My personal view both from reasoning and from being uncomfortably close to sharks when chumming is happening is that it makes me feel a lot less safe. So my personal decision is not to go anywhere near such activities.

Two of the people I know who were mauled, both by bull sharks and both in the Bahamas, were in water that had been stirred up so much that the sharks had no vision, and in both cases there were speared fish in the water nearby. The sharks entered into a feeding frenzy and (we presume) went for the dead/dying fish. The human victims appear to have been collateral damage, not targets.

I swim close to sharks almost every day. There is no chum/bait in the water and the sharks are interested in us but not in any way aggressive. In my experience that changes dramatically once food is in the water.

Ultimately there is insufficient evidence to prove either case and we'll all just do what we want. I'll be sad when divers are injured or killed in these events but I won't be surprised. Nor will I be there.

That's it for me with this thread. I'm getting giddy with all this going round in circles.

 

[2Tours N Iraq`]

Two of the people I know who were mauled, both by bull sharks and both in the Bahamas, were in water that had been stirred up so much that the sharks had no vision, and in both cases there were speared fish in the water nearby. The sharks entered into a feeding frenzy and (we presume) went for the dead/dying fish. The human victims appear to have been collateral damage, not targets.

I think this sums it all up. Humans are not the intended prey for sharks but when there is great room for confusion on the shark's part and they simply make a mistake they bear an unwarranted amount of blame. Trying to keep this post on topic, none of us here know whether the water around the victim was turbid causing the shark to not be able to see him. It is my belief that diving without a cage on a chummed shark dive is safe as long as the sharks have the ability to visually see their prey/food. When that is no longer the case is when the dive becomes dangerous. "[The bull shark] has, according to Robert Hueter, director of the Center of Shark Research at the Mote Marine Laboratory in Sarasota, Fla., the highest level of testosterone in any animal, including lions and elephants."{1} Due to the testosterone levels, bull sharks are naturally more aggressive. It is unfortunate that your friends were, as you state, mauled by them but let us not forget that it was simply a case of mistaken identity. We should always be slow to place the blame on the shark, especially when there is a lack of details surrounding the bite in this unfortunate event.

{1}The Pelagic Shark Research Foundation - In the News "The Bull Shark" section, second paragraph, 3rd sentence.

 

[seaducer]

Peter, I think you might be confusing the standards of evidence. In the case of shark dives, the number of bites is evidence. A high number of bites supports the arguement that these dives are extremely dangerous. A low number of bites supports the arguement that they are much less dangerous than the position that many people have stated here.

It is not the same as the examples you cited by politicians. In this case we have tens of thousands of participants over decades of dives with tens of attacks, if that many.

I am sorry for your friends, but the key there is spearfishing activity. These are two entirely different vehicles of shark encounter, I will see if I can explain the difference.

In shark dives, or chumming, you are putting fish parts in the water, creating a static food environment for the sharks to investigate. Studies of whale carcass have shown that sharks approaching dead whales are cautious, as are white sharks who are chummed up to a boat at first. Sharks may start zipping around and displaying at each other as a way to establish a pecking order, but that is due to competition. They are not swimming around biting anything that moves.

In the case of spearfishing, you have many more stimulus, the struggling fish for one, the fact that the blood and oil are fresh is another biggie. In that case, you are putting the shark into hunt and snatch mode. They are not looking for a static piece of meat or dead floating fish, but something moving and thrashing about. In addition you have people often holding fish when the sharks appear and often they get bitten while the shark is just trying to steal the fish away from them, like they would another shark.

I don't know if I do a good job there, but the reality of the situation is that shark dives and spearfishing are apples and oranges. Spearfishing is a very dangerous activity, and yet still there are not that many attacks! Clearly to me this indicates that the impression people have with sharks is still being driven by Hollywood more than research and fact. We expect sharks to be mindless killers because Peter Benchly and even J. Cousteau himself said so! But that was the 1970's and we have learned much since then.

Some of it too may be comfort levels. I am much more comfortable dealing with animals than I am riding a motorcycle. I won't ride a motorbike because I feel like I am in danger of dying. Other people do not and ride as often as they can.

Anyway, we go around and around and around....

 

[Black_3000psi]

well I guess its just a question of common sense.you either use it or not but its funny how we see a person walking their dog down the street on a leash and we still give the domesticated animal more room then it needs, just being on the safe side.why? because we know dogs bite. I recall a fool asking my mom once if our dog bites, she looked at him with the greatest amount of disgust and asked the dummy if the dog had teeth. Any animal that eats meat will do what ever it has to in order to survive, if a shark is hungry do you really think its going to turn down a meal cause you are human? I dive every day 4 dives a day and I look forward to the sudden shark encounters but these are chance meetings nothing created. I also clean boat bottoms for extra cash and one of the harbors I work in has some huge sting rays after months of them watching me from a distance they finally came up to me and it was a mind blowing experience. I thank god that our association is not based on me feeding them but every time I hit the water in less then 2 minutes they are swimming around me. once I was on the bottom looking for a bolt I had dropped and suddenly felt a whoose on my head from one of them buzzing my bald head.that was the greatest moment in my life and I didn't have to bait the situation.No need to force nature to treat you to great moments relax dive and enjoy. every thing else will happen if and when its supposed to.For those of you who still wish to swim in bloody water please be my guest sounds like great population intelligence control to me.