Shark attack, Egypt, Brothers islands

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I never dove with that species, but when sharks dart around, have pecs down etc. they are excited and it is a LOT more risky.

Perhaps repeatedly allowing them to get too close is providing a setting that promotes their further excitement? Is this what people want? Do the divers want the sharks to approach super close, so they could reach out and touch them? Is that the behavior that is desired? If so, then continuing to have everyone unarmed with zero deterrence and absolutely no defense from an escalation and attack is an understandable management technique.

If, on the other hand, the goal was to ensure the sharks do not commonly invade personal space (and be subject to the escalation of excitement that it may evoke), then a few DMs could carry a pole spear or sharp stick and jab them hard when they get too close. Even chasing and feigning aggressiveness, seems to cause a lot of sharks to back off and be respectful - assuming there are not strong offsetting factors like a struggling fish or an obvious stimulus like scent, sight, struggling sounds of prey, witnessing other sharks feeding or approaching prey items aggressively with zero consequences etc. Managing sharks seems like it involves not letting their behavior in a particular interaction to spiral out of control. Keeping things mellow and respectful and calm is preferable to trying to jab 3-4 sharks that are totally amped up and having everyone "run" for the exit.

Perhaps there are not a huge number of sharks that the divers are commonly interacting with and several of the individual sharks have, over time, taken on dangerous and aggressive behaviors? These individuals may have "a bad attitude" and if they persist, other sharks may learn by emulation and also be emboldened - perhaps that is at play here?

I don't think sharks are stupid, are unobservant, are unaware of hierarchical positions in a feeding or aggregating situation or are incapable of learning. They can learn the lesson that is being taught if it is not too complex and if it relates to their natural instincts.

Although I am NOT a fan of this activity at all, just look at a well run shark feeding operation. The experienced feeders are very much aware of the over all excitement level of the sharks. The food is doled out slowly and in a very controlled manner and if a few individuals seem to be getting too aggressive or competitive, then the feeding is suspended until everyone calms down. Don't think I am anthropomorphizing the situation one bit. In my opinion this type of activity is unwise, unsafe and has the potential for negative consequences for the individual shark's safety, but on the other hand, the safety record is not as bad as it could be and it clearly demonstrates the ability of humans to influence, if not modulate, the behavior and intensity of activity for several large and dangerous shark species.

Perhaps removing several or a few dozen of the excessively aggressive individuals along with the guides carrying shark deterring sticks and a policy to ensure that these (man eating) sharks are not allowed to get too close to customers before they get a poke, might be an economically superior solution compared to shutting down the diving for an extended period of time? Selective elimination of aggressive individuals is not too complex and spearfisherman in other areas of the world have done so on occasion.

In Florida, the destruction of a large aggressive alligator is widely accepted and seems to be beneficial to the populations of alligators that live in relatively close proximity to humans.

Then again, if the desire is too promote or allow the sharks to approach people within 1 foot and make "test" runs of aggressive passes with impunity, then maybe this isn't an option. Perhaps an occasional calf or forearm is a necessary sacrifice for the benefit of being able to get a close up of a shark's eyeball.

Normally the shark keep their distance or come in close. Very close a lot of the time but you can tell by their pectorals and speed horizontally and vertically whether they’re just checking you out or whether they’re more excited.

I think you’d need to dive with them here to understand better. I mean that in a nice way. They’re normally fine. We’ve just done something recently as humans as yet unconfirmed that has made the encounters more risky which now is why they’ve closed down the site for the remainder of the year.

These sharks are very endangered and livreboards play an important part in their conservation when done properly. Bang sticks, prods, etc are not currently necessary. Better management is what is required. That is what is being looked into in detail now.

Thx
 
I never dove with that species, but when sharks dart around, have pecs down etc. they are excited and it is a LOT more risky.

Perhaps repeatedly allowing them to get too close is providing a setting that promotes their further excitement? Is this what people want? Do the divers want the sharks to approach super close, so they could reach out and touch them? Is that the behavior that is desired? If so, then continuing to have everyone unarmed with zero deterrence and absolutely no defense from an escalation and attack is an understandable management technique.

If, on the other hand, the goal was to ensure the sharks do not commonly invade personal space (and be subject to the escalation of excitement that it may evoke), then a few DMs could carry a pole spear or sharp stick and jab them hard when they get too close. Even chasing and feigning aggressiveness, seems to cause a lot of sharks to back off and be respectful - assuming there are not strong offsetting factors like a struggling fish or an obvious stimulus like scent, sight, struggling sounds of prey, witnessing other sharks feeding or approaching prey items aggressively with zero consequences etc. Managing sharks seems like it involves not letting their behavior in a particular interaction to spiral out of control. Keeping things mellow and respectful and calm is preferable to trying to jab 3-4 sharks that are totally amped up and having everyone "run" for the exit.

Perhaps there are not a huge number of sharks that the divers are commonly interacting with and several of the individual sharks have, over time, taken on dangerous and aggressive behaviors? These individuals may have "a bad attitude" and if they persist, other sharks may learn by emulation and also be emboldened - perhaps that is at play here?

I don't think sharks are stupid, are unobservant, are unaware of hierarchical positions in a feeding or aggregating situation or are incapable of learning. They can learn the lesson that is being taught if it is not too complex and if it relates to their natural instincts.

Although I am NOT a fan of this activity at all, just look at a well run shark feeding operation. The experienced feeders are very much aware of the over all excitement level of the sharks. The food is doled out slowly and in a very controlled manner and if a few individuals seem to be getting too aggressive or competitive, then the feeding is suspended until everyone calms down. Don't think I am anthropomorphizing the situation one bit. In my opinion this type of activity is unwise, unsafe and has the potential for negative consequences for the individual shark's safety, but on the other hand, the safety record is not as bad as it could be and it clearly demonstrates the ability of humans to influence, if not modulate, the behavior and intensity of activity for several large and dangerous shark species.

Perhaps removing several or a few dozen of the excessively aggressive individuals along with the guides carrying shark deterring sticks and a policy to ensure that these (man eating) sharks are not allowed to get too close to customers before they get a poke, might be an economically superior solution compared to shutting down the diving for an extended period of time? Selective elimination of aggressive individuals is not too complex and spearfisherman in other areas of the world have done so on occasion.

In Florida, the destruction of a large aggressive alligator is widely accepted and seems to be beneficial to the populations of alligators that live in relatively close proximity to humans.

Then again, if the desire is too promote or allow the sharks to approach people within 1 foot and make "test" runs of aggressive passes with impunity, then maybe this isn't an option. Perhaps an occasional calf or forearm is a necessary sacrifice for the benefit of being able to get a close up of a shark's eyeball.

OWT:s are different from other sharks inme. Silkys in groups are the closest. When other sharks keep a distance, owt:s will come very near divers and even bump them gently w/o any drama. Behaving calm. If you start waving your arms and try to hit them, more likely that you will agitate the shark and if it comes to a fight, the shark will win. Sticks, knifes etc. won’t change the outcome. You’d get hurt.
They move around a lot and there are more tha 600 individual OWT sharks identified in the Red Sea marine parks, but probably many, many more. Just by their numbers and their nomadic nature, it’s extremely unlikely that their behaviour should be altered due to dive activities, unlike the circus shows in the Bahamas.
 
Yes is mating season.

There have been so many divers behaving like schmucks there for so many years I don’t think that’s the primary trigger. Otherwise we would have seen more of this.

Too many boats. Intentional or accidental chumming I think is the primary driver of the behaviour change and that is backed up by my first hand encounters this year.

Diver and boat competency really needs to improve tho. I bailed from one dive before I had to deal with what looked like nearly inevitable carnage. Bad on me for bailing but some of the divers just haven’t a clue. Not saying it’s their fault either.
 
Yes is mating season.

There have been so many divers behaving like schmucks there for so many years I don’t think that’s the primary trigger. Otherwise we would have seen more of this.

Too many boats. Intentional or accidental chumming I think is the primary driver of the behaviour change and that is backed up by my first hand encounters this year.

Diver and boat competency really needs to improve tho. I bailed from one dive before I had to deal with what looked like nearly inevitable carnage. Bad on me for bailing but some of the divers just haven’t a clue. Not saying it’s their fault either.

There was a clear rise in demand in 2016 and a very noticable increase last year as well as this year. Boats got fully booked way in advance. Quite a few more boats this year compared to say 2015. But yeah, schmucks in the water isn’t a new thing. But there might be more of them.
 
Normally the shark keep their distance or come in close. Very close a lot of the time but you can tell by their pectorals and speed horizontally and vertically whether they’re just checking you out or whether they’re more excited.

I think you’d need to dive with them here to understand better. I mean that in a nice way. They’re normally fine. We’ve just done something recently as humans as yet unconfirmed that has made the encounters more risky which now is why they’ve closed down the site for the remainder of the year.

These sharks are very endangered and livreboards play an important part in their conservation when done properly. Bang sticks, prods, etc are not currently necessary. Better management is what is required. That is what is being looked into in detail now.

Thx

It sounds like you are saying, that you know my ideas are wrong, but you don't know what the right answer is. Even though that sounds weird, I can accept that. I've never even seen one, so I can't present the ideas with a whole lot of confidence.

You've also claimed the shark is extremely endangered.

A quick check for confirmation of your claim seems to indicate the sharks are NOT Endangered??? Is the US determination different for these particular sharks?

Listing the Oceanic Whitetip Shark as Threatened under the Endangered Species Act | NOAA Fisheries

Oceanic Whitetip Shark :: NOAA Fisheries Pacific Islands Regional Office

Oceanic whitetip shark - Wikipedia
 
Yeah the Insufficient Data has always played well for fisheries.

They used be abundant. They are very much no longer abundant. It’s only my opinion but their chances for survival are small. So whether endangered or criticially endangered doesn’t mean a lot to me. They are seriously endangered. Used to be abundant in so many places. Only a few you can find them reliably now.
IUCN Red List of Threatened Species

Species vulnerable but we all know the battles between conservation and commercial and commercial always pulls then ‘insufficient data’ gig. It doesn’t mean they are right.

In any event our views may differ but hopefully we agree on a few points and remaining parts of the jigsaw will become clear and we can avoid these incidents in the future.
 
You've also claimed the shark is extremely endangered.

A quick check for confirmation of your claim seems to indicate the sharks are NOT Endangered??? Is the US determination different for these particular sharks?

Listing the Oceanic Whitetip Shark as Threatened under the Endangered Species Act | NOAA Fisheries

Oceanic Whitetip Shark :: NOAA Fisheries Pacific Islands Regional Office

Oceanic whitetip shark - Wikipedia

So am I missing something? I read they list it as endagered.
There are off course commercial interests at play, and fishery organisations protect their members interests, which usually are short term because they want to make money.
So if a fishery organisation lists them as endagered, then you know they are in trouble. The Red Sea is one of the few places where they are still relatively abundant.
 
A fishery body can’t list them as endangered but governing bodies such as CITES can but when it comes head to head lack of data apart from anecdotal isn’t a great argument even if it’s clear stocks are reducing.

Commercial interests obviously have substantially more financial muscle than conservation.

Ergo, not good for sharks and many other marine species. There should be a burden of proof on the commercial interests imo but on don’t see that happening
 
Oceanic roving scavengers are attracted by the noise of vessels. If you are a CCR diver, you will be aware of the roaring noise engendered by lots of OC regulators being breathed from. OWTs are attracted because for 100 years they have followed freighters along the nearby sea lanes, that chuck their waste into the water. When surrounded by lots of OC divers, the noise is all around them - it rings the dinner bell for them and they may go into a frenzy looking for the food they expect to find. Years ago there might have been a couple of boats at the Brothers. I'm told that on one day last week, there were nine. Too many divers in the water. Too much noise.
 
...Years ago there might have been a couple of boats at the Brothers. I'm told that on one day last week, there were nine. Too many divers in the water. Too much noise.

I did BDE 2 1/2 years ago, probably the nadir of Egyptian tourism. We were the only boat within site at Brothers and there were just 4 boats at Daedalus.
 

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