Shannon Lewis - The True Story

[boulderjohn]

Before Boulderjohn knew me, I was the person he asked to check this out for the research into the NSS-CDS inquiry. The day I checked, the perch was at 50' and the water level wasn't high at all.

To provide a further explanation:

During my investigation, I was not near High Springs, and I asked Superlyte27 to go to the ear and tell me what he could see from several depths. I also asked him to describe the water level at the time. I was unable to determine the water level at the time of the incident for comparison.

I realize some readers will not have thought through the issue enough to tell what difference the water level would make, so I will make a brief explanation. The entrance to the cave system known as the ear is nearly straight down for a while and then makes a sharp turn as it levels off. The straight down part is called the chimney. If you are in the chimney at a certain point--where the turn occurs--you can see clearly all the way to the deco log easily. If you are a couple feet below that, you can't. What is the depth of the turning point where you can still see? It varies, depending upon the depth of the water. Superlyte27 determined that, depending upon the depth of the water, it would have been possible to see all the way to the log at the time of the incident from the depth indicated.

 

[Jack Hammer]

And you don't think that 'peer pressure' plays a part in this? I certainly enjoy diving in a team, whether it be one or two others. But I also enjoy the times where I'm not worried about another diver. As an instructor, I almost always take the nurturing role, even when I don't need to. a.t.o. : a tus ordenes. "at your service". I almost always put my wants way behind yours and my needs as well as the situation warrants.

To put this into context, 'peer pressure' is probably why she never disclosed her medical condition. She knew she was wrong but she still put her desires ahead of her needs and the needs of the team. Make no doubt about it, her decision has had negative impacts on Jim and Dave for seven years now. She paid the ultimate price, but they have not stopped paying. We assume that somehow she could have been saved IF she had a buddy next to her. Oh wait...

IF she had a buddy next to her.

I had to change the font, because that's a huge 'if'. There are any number of medical conditions that can have no positive outcome if they occur under water. People still die with their buddies valiantly trying to save them and that often results in the buddies' injury or death as well. Why put yourself, your buddy or your team in jeopardy of having to risk their life and health trying to save your butt? To me it's simple: team or no team, if you have medical issues, stay out of the water.

I don't want or need some one to dive with me who is unwilling to state something is a bad idea, they aren't feeling it, or the plan is beyond their comfort/skill level.

If you are diving with people that you are too afraid to tell them you are uncomfortable with a dive plan or that something during the dive has made you not want to be there then you either need to suck it up, find different people to dive with, or come to the realization that you just may have no business making technical level dives. [emoji2]

 

[The Chairman]

Jack. I'm fine diving like I do, but thanks very much for your concern.

 

[Omisson]

There's no physiological reason why alternobaric vertigo would directly cause debilitation, loss of breathing control, so to speak, and unconsciousness. However, the panic that can result from sudden, unexpected, severe vertigo (and kudos to TSandM for overcoming that) could certainly lead to both.

Best regards,
DDM

The primary symptoms- as you stated- often lead to secondary reactions and conditions- panic being one of them. But so too is nausea and vomiting. Vomiting in a regulator can quickly lead to drowning - especially while in the grips of vertigo which is already disorientating. The three effects simultaneously can become overwhelming - especially to the partially trained and more so in a cave (or other overhead) environment.

But in any event- you do agree that such infections are contraindicated for diving- right?

Alternobaric Vertigo | Ears & Diving - DAN Health & Diving

 

[TSandM]

I think that diving when you have diving-related ear problems is unwise. Diving with an active middle ear infection is often not even possible, because the person can't equalize, which appears to have been the case here. Diving with INNER ear problems which are diving-related is extremely unwise, simply because augmenting the damage already done can result in permanent hearing loss or worse, permanent vertigo. I simply took exception to a blanket statement that diving while taking meds for an inner ear infection was absolutely contraindicated. It would depend, as it does in my husband's case, with the type of inner ear problem, and the medication being prescribed.

I honestly agree with one of the prior posts, that a cave-trained, experienced diver with redundant equipment should have been able to make the ascent from the log, even if vomiting or having severe vertigo, without dying. Honestly, if you let GO of the log, you'll be on the surface faster than you want to be (or, as Jim told me before my first Ginnie trip, "Get as negative as you can before you start the ascent, or the Devil will spit you in the river!"). Something didn't work here, and we don't know what it was, but I really have no quarrel with someone who expected a trained diver to be able to make the 20 foot or so ascent from the log without issue, if she appeared to be fine at the log. I honestly can't remember ever permitting a teammate to make an ascent alone, but I have seen other people do it, and I HAVE allowed a teammate to surface swim in from the ascent point alone, although I watched them. It's really hard to know where to draw a line on what someone can do for himself, and you try to be somewhat rational about your decisions, and things can still go wrong.

The year I learned to dive (or perhaps the next year, I'm not sure) a woman in her 20's died on a completely routine dive to benign local dive site where the max depth you can reach, if you're good on gas and like to swim, is 40 feet. She died, as I recall, in a little more than ten feet of water, and to my knowledge, it was never determined why. She had gotten separated from her buddies, which is all too easy to do in our murky water, and by the time they found her, she was dead. I'm sure her buddies have carried the pain of that around with them for the last decade, or at least I know I would have. Yet there was nothing they did to cause the accident, and may not have been anything they could have done to prevent it, even if they had been with her.

I feel very sorry for Jim.

 

[danvolker]

Obviously with my time in DIR, I believe in the buddy system and team based diving for all "challenging dives". However, there are places and times when you just dont have the level of challenge that calls for buddies or teams.

• If one of us is tech level, or even a "good" advanced recreational diver, we should not need a buddy to jump in a swimming pool and test some gear out. If we are not "good" enough to do this safely, we should not be diving.
• If on a boat over a recreational dive site, and the captain needs one of us to set a hook on a wreck---this can certainly be done solo, as we are all self reliant, and there is no challenge in such a venture. No challenge, and no need for a buddy. If the site is too deep for you to perform an emergency free ascent easily, you may decide you need a buddy for it, or a slung stage with reg as alternate air source.
• Over a 30 foot baby reef in Key Largo, or the Blue Heron Bridge Marine Park, an Advanced diver ( real one) does not need a buddy to be safe.....Buddies are fun to have, and here they are a social nicety, not a safety net.

DIR and the buddy system was never intended to become a Nanny system for divers that need to have a babysitter watching at all times. I am not referencing Shannon with this, I am referencing the justifiability of a group or a buddy allowing someone to surface solo in an environment with swimming pool level challenges.

If we don't get reasonable about this, the next thing you know you wont be able to take a bath alone--you will need a buddy watching--just in case.

 

[duke dive medicine]

The primary symptoms- as you stated- often lead to secondary reactions and conditions- panic being one of them. But so too is nausea and vomiting. Vomiting in a regulator can quickly lead to drowning - especially while in the grips of vertigo which is already disorientating. The three effects simultaneously can become overwhelming - especially to the partially trained and more so in a cave (or other overhead) environment.

But in any event- you do agree that such infections are contraindicated for diving- right?

Alternobaric Vertigo | Ears & Diving - DAN Health & Diving

Vomiting in a regulator can lead to drowning, but the people I know who've actually done it just hit the purge button then swished out the chunky parts. Like you said, this may be difficult to do while experiencing profound vertigo.

This is picking nits, but I think that the actual contraindication is the inability to effectively equalize the ears secondary to inflammation resulting from the infection. If you make a blanket statement that ear infections are a contraindication to diving the logical question becomes, at what point in the process does it become safe to resume diving?

Best regards,
DDM

 

[Dhboner]

Speaking to NetDoc's point about the team approach to diving (and his points are certainly valid), all my dives are conducted as a "team". Usually the team is made up of my two sons but periodically I dive with others in our dive social group. I was trained that the weakest diver leads the dive...the term "weakest diver" can mean a number of things...it can mean the diver with the least knowledge of the dive site, the least trained, the diver having any minor medical issues like a head cold (any major issues and there is no dive) or anything else that might place them at a disadvantage. The governing philosophy is that peer pressure is eliminated or at least reduced if the dive plan is formulated and lead by the diver who might be considered the "weak link" in the team (at least on that day) and they will hopefully plan and execute a dive within their comfort zone.

 

[danvolker]

Not all of us are as enamored with team diving. I've been in teams where I've been pushed beyond my comfort zone without them ever realizing it. I'm sure I've done the same without realizing it either. Peer pressure, positive and negative, is a real motivator and often clouds/distorts our judgement without anyone realizing it.

I think it's important for everyone to understand and respect their individual limits. In fact, diving is all about limits, isn't it? Time, depth and pressure should be agreed upon on every dive as well as the physical, mental and skill aspects. I'm looking forward to (gasp) spending some time in the caves this week with no one around but me. I don't want to have to worry about where you want to go, or how you want to do things. I want to perfect my art and have some fun on my own. That doesn't mar my buddy skills when I dive with others as the week progresses.

For me to consider it a "team dive", I'd have to have been diving with the exact same buddies many times before, to the point that we had all reached a dynamic...in which each knew what to expect from the others...in pretty much any conceivable situation ....At least this is "Team" for a dive that we, within the team, see as challenging to us...but of course good for us.

I am not a fan of jumping into a group of tech divers I dont know, even ones that have had the tech training and drunk the Koolaid...and thinking that we have any kind of "dynamic"....This is not relevant on an easy dive...it is very relevant any place I see the dive as tough and perilous. ...I have buddies I would do such a dive with and feel great about it....with an unknown team...there are just too many unknowns for the severe dives....these groups need to dive together, quite a bit before they can be my definition of a team.

 

[boulderjohn]

If we don't get reasonable about this, the next thing you know you wont be able to take a bath alone--you will need a buddy watching--just in case.

A significant part of my tech training was in a DIR system that heavily emphasized the buddy system to the point of saying you never dive alone. I left that group for various reasons, but a year or two ago I found myself in the same dive site with several of them. (Don't get me wrong--we were still friends, and it was good to see them again.) I was with two students doing search and recovery training. At one point, I had to hide an object for them to find. While I had them occupied with something on shore, I did a surface swim to a location about 20 feet from the shoreline, dropped to the bottom at about 15 feet deep, looked around for a minute for the best spot, dropped the item, and returned to the surface. Although they did not exactly make a big deal of it, my old DIR friends did note (seriously) that I had (tsk! tsk!) left my old training behind and undertaken a solo dive.