Seeking Opinions on Troubling Incident

[Doc]

100 replies, 2586 hits, 49 hours in

 

[scubafanatic]

....although hindsight is 20/20...maybe I'd have used a dive slate or visual signs to let the other 'hostile' instructor know I'd be waiting for him/her on the surface...and let him try to focus or complete his class while going through the psychological stress of anticipating a pending confrontation.....repayment in a small way for the psychological stress inflicted on the 'victim' student diver.......even if you only have 'words' over it, the stress of his/her worrying about a public scene...possible physical violence...etc.....would be a small measure of justice/revenge/ immediate satisfaction...without waiting for a ruling from the US Supreme Court ! .....also, it's likely the 'aggressive' instructor's luck will eventually run out, and he'll pull that shoving 'stunt' on the wrong person's wife/girlfriend/kid....whose companion/parent will likely take that 'shoving' episode personally and rectify the situation in an abrupt and physical fashion !

 

[psychocabbage]

As a shop owner I hear a lot of things... so before I jump to any rash decisions on this one, I'm asking for help from both sides of the aisle. I'd like to hear from recently certified students on this - as well as Instructors... as the incident involves both.

One of my Instructors called me yesterday afternoon to report an incident that had occurred at a local quarry. I'll try to keep the story as short as possible.

My Instructor was on the last dive of a two day open water checkout with two students. They were on their way back from doing a dive and at the end of the dive, one of the students stopped on a platform at a depth of 20ft to do his safety stop.

At the time, an Instructor from another shop had a single student on this platform doing some skills. I'll preface the rest of the story by saying the platform is large enough to reasonably fit 6 people on it. So now there are three people on it. My Instructors student, the Instructor from the other shop and that Instructors student.

My Instructor and his other student are hovering just off the platform.

The Instructor from the other shop inexplicably swims over to our student and shoves him very hard off the platform causing our student to lose his balance from a kneeling position.

So here are my questions for anyone with an opinion.

1. As a student, how would you feel if that happened to you and what would you want done about it?

2. As an Instructor, would you ever do such a thing and if so, what justification do you think you have to do so in a public quarry.

3. Had you been our Instructor in this incident, what would you have done underwater at the time of the incident or later after the incident if given the opportunity?

4. Would any of you go back to that quarry if you knew the assaulting Instructor was an Instructor working at that quarry's dive shop?

I know what I want to do and what I would have done had I been in the water at the time... as well as what I would have done out of the water afterwards... but I also know that wouldn't have been pretty... so I'm looking for opinions on how a calmer, cooler, collected me may respond when the time is appropriate.

My Instructor who reported this to me spent his time grabbing our student and pulling him away... which I think was appropriate. Afterwards he had no opportunity to address the matter - and called me instead.

In any event, thanks in advance for your thoughts on this one... has anyone else out there had a similar incident?

Without reading any of the other replies here is what I would of done as a new diver:
1- Have them not press charges against me.
2- N/A (not an instructor.. but really. who in their right minds wants to pick fights underwater??)
3- Grabbed the assaulting instructor, knocked his reg from his mouth and filled his BC.. (hmm.. guess I would pick a fight underwater.. but in this case I would be "provoked")
4- Ya.. Cause after doing it once to me, he wouldnt be doing it again.

You could always try and go the civil route and talk to people who will tell you they will look into it and never do anything... Not my fav course of action.. or you kick the guys arse and call it a day. Had it seemed like even more aggression from his side, I would turn off his air and watch him panic and shoot to the surface.
Then go up and have a chat with him and explain to him how he will be giving my student a full heartfelt apology.

 

[SoybeanQueen]

If I wasn't hurt then taking action is, in my estimation, petty and not something I would do. To hell with the bastard.

Conversely, if no one ever takes action, he thinks he's getting away with it just fine, and the next person could be hurt or killed. It all goes back to intent. Were it me, I would have stuck around to find out why the guy acted that way. If he had some logical reason for doing it, fine. If he's someone who solves his problems by acting like a loon, well, maybe more people need to take "petty" action against him.

 

[SoybeanQueen]

OR They could make the Dive Cons and DM's swim around dragging a banner, like the airplanes at the ocean saying look out new divers following, don't hurt them, they are sensitive

I think a little badge with a drawing of two stick figures shoving one another with a big red slash through them would be appropriate.

It's late and things are funnier to me right now than they should be, but I'm giggling imagining a DM swimming around just pointing at new divers. Even better if they use a really big spotlight.

 

[dry heat diver]

If I were the student who was assaulted I would be seriously tempted to confront that instructor on dry land and maybe poke him once or twice in the eye. At the minimum, I would file a police report as well as complaints with the dive shop and the certification agency. Any instructor, or for that matter any diver, who would endanger another person in the water deserves serious retribution.

 

[offthewall1]

After making a phone attempt and getting no reply, yesterday I sent the following email to the quarry owner:

(Owner of Quarry - name deleted),

Did any of your Instructors mention an incident between themselves and one of our students on Sunday?

Here is the report I got from both the student and (name deleted). Im hoping you can look into it. I dont know if it was one of your Instructors or another group that was present at the quarry.

(name deleted) was leading two of his students back from diving and was coming back by the first platform (from the deep side). Upon approaching the platform he saw an Instructor working with a student on the platform and a couple others hovering off of it so he lead his students around the platform. One of his two students however became disoriented in the vis and decided to stop on the platform on the opposite side from where the Instructor was working with the student. Apparently our student saw the people on the platform, realized it was not (his group) and turned around to look behind himself all the while (name deleted) could see him from the side of the platform and (name deleted) also saw what happened next.

While our student had his back turned, the Instructor swam over to our student and pushed him in the back causing him to lose his balance. (name deleted) saw this happen and pulled our diver off the platform and out of harms way.

Id like to believe this was not one of your Instructors - who would swim over and push someone else in the back but to our knowledge, no one else was in the water at the time.

Im sure that from one professional to another, you would agree that pushing someone in the back underwater is completely unprofessional and even if it were perceived that he (our student) had impolitely intruded on a platform where a class was taking place, the more appropriate action would have been to tap him on the shoulder and ask him to move on not to shove him in the back in an attempt to push him off the platform.

I very respectfully ask you to look into the matter. (Name deleted) was unable to identify the person underwater as he moved quickly away with our student but Im hopeful you can identify him and take professional corrective action.

I think you know I respect you as a professional and hope you will look into it.

Id really rather not know who it was, I just would like you to look into it and address it.

Respectfully,

Ken Barrick, OWNER
KB Diver Services, Inc. Off the Wall Scuba Inc.
PO Box 24814 3007-A Eastern Blvd.
Baltimore, MD 21220 Middle River, MD 21220
(410)-335-4654 (443)-772-0595
(443)-604-1247

 

[syonker]

Ken,

Sounds like you're approaching this gracefully and directly. I'm sure I speak for everyone tuned into this thread when I say we're looking forward to hearing what the response is. My guess is the quarry owner will want to hear both sides, so it might be enlightening (or at least interesting) to hear what the other side says.

One more thing I might question because something is ringing in the back of my head from stress and rescue training... If *anyone* exhibited behavior like this I would most likely interpret it as a stressed diver (or in this case OWI) during the dive. I guess I'd expect an OWI to be better self-aware of that fact.

Anyone have any opinions on how to handle a stressed instructor?

-S

 

[Diver0001]

I'm an instructor. here is my opinion.

1. As a student, how would you feel if that happened to you and what would you want done about it?

This behaviour from the instructor is completely unacceptable expecially without any warning. I think the student may have reason to consider going to the police about this. If someone in a bar or on the street had pushed him/her like that then you'd see it as assault. I hope the student in question was debriefed to understand that nothing they did deserved or should have provoked that reaction. I also hope that the instructor took the time to find out who it was and to have a talk with him and to inform his agency and his employer about this behaviour.

2. As an Instructor, would you ever do such a thing and if so, what justification do you think you have to do so in a public quarry.

I can certainly imagine situations where other divers get in the way of what you're doing. I've personally had groups of divers crowd out my group from a platform (I believe unintentionally, albeit boobishly) and I know at least one instructor who had a diver literally try swim between him and one of his students while the student was engaged in a mask-removal excercise. Why people sometimes do this is a mystery but there are definitely cases of divers who are so clueless that having them near you while you're giving lessons can lead to dangerous situations.

Moreover, I don't like having other divers near my group during lessons because I want to have control over my group and I don't want my group getting mixed up with bypassers. I've had that happen a couple of times and it's extremely unpleasant. In one case I crossed paths with another DM (in that case) during a guided dive and ended up with one of his divers and he ended up with one of mine.... ! I've had worse things than that happen too, so having groups in close proximity to one another during lessons is somethign I try to avoid.

Having said that, if I want someone to go away I will give them an "ok" sign and then wave them away with a "shoo" sign. 90% of the time people just leave. On rare occasions that they don't I make sure they don't get too close. I've never had one that I had to push out of the way but I can imagine it happening. Would I push them as hard or aggressively as you described? Absolutely not. Safety always comes first and that applies not only to me and my students but also to other divers we happen to encounter under water. Moreover, the lesson this instructor gave to his student by doing this was unacceptable by any measure.

3. Had you been our Instructor in this incident, what would you have done underwater at the time of the incident or later after the incident if given the opportunity?

Described above.

4. Would any of you go back to that quarry if you knew the assaulting Instructor was an Instructor working at that quarry's dive shop?

Absolutely. In fact I would have been talking to the manager of the shop before my hair was dry.

My Instructor who reported this to me spent his time grabbing our student and pulling him away... which I think was appropriate. Afterwards he had no opportunity to address the matter - and called me instead.

your instructor should be commended for taking care of his student and not allowing it to excalate under water. The time to escalate is after the dive.

R..

 

[ScubaSarus]

I believe technically the diver was NOT assaulted, He was battered. Assault is a threat and Battery is physical contact.

Just getting technical.