Secondary Regulator... Do you use one?

[SeaJay]

On a side note, every diver should be comfortable with the regulator out of their mouth. There will come a day when it will be out voluntarily or not.

I may be the newbie here (just call me "FNG") but uhhhh... I can't imagine NOT being comfortable with that.

My plain ol' simple OW test included both "regulator out of mouth" and "mask off face" situations, and how to rectify either or both. My instructor also went to great lengths to talk about blowing a small stream of bubbles while the regulator was out, and how to find it again in no-vis situations. If I recall, a full dive (there were four for OW) was dedicated solely to these situations. We learned how to reinstall your mask, clear it properly, and even how to make sure that no debris or even animals had gotten in there first. We even did a good deal of the removal and reinstallation of BC's and weight belts at depth.

I would think that your ability to maintain your life support under water would be of primary concern. Heck, he even taught us how to breathe on a reg with the mask off... Not an easy task, since your nose is uncovered, your hands are busy, and a simple inhale would normally get you a good gulp of water through your nose.

That said, I can still for sure see why a paniked buddy would grab your primary out of instinct, and I can also see why you definitely wouldn't want that to be the case.

My plan is to make numerous deep dives, and eventually become very familiar with all kinds of exotic gasses... Nitrox, I'm hoping, will be the "norm" for me, while Trimix and even Heliox would be the more exotic ones. That said, I can tell that OOA situations for me are more likely to occur at significant depth... And if that's the case, I'm going to need a good secondary, so that everyone's comfortable during longer decompressions... Not to mention that someone up there said that their integrated octopus breathed terrible at 100 feet or more. At 220 feet, I'd need a secondary that actually worked, know what I mean? And the integrated option isn't looking good.

Can you not choose a decent integrated regulator? Never mind... I like the idea of having the longer hose for the secondary anyway, not to mention the ability to shorten my inflator hose.

...So that means that I'm going to have three hoses, at least... Primary, secondary, and inflator, all coming from my first stage. In another post, I talked about IA dive computers and the possibility of going wireless. I had a hard time justifying the extra cost and possibility of something going wrong, but thought it a good idea to reduce hoses. Maybe that's not such a big deal anymore either...

 

[JamesK]

This may sound harsh, but I feel if you can not deal with your reg being ripped out of your mouth, at any given time, you probably should not be diving. If you ever get into a situation where someone needs air, it is very possible that they are going to go for the reg that is in your mouth. This is the one that they know works, and they know has air. Are you even 100% positive that your reg is still inside your scumball? Is it possible that it came out, and you did not notice it? Is it possible that it is know dragging across the bottom in the sand and rock? Also, why would you want to give a diver who is out of air, and possibly close to panic, a regulator that could quite possibly not be working? Of course you check it before the dive, but are you sure something is now not stuck in the second stage that could cause a problem? Are you willing to bet the life of your dive buddy on it? If they panic when they get a less than functioning reg, are they going to go into full blown panic, and simply fight for the one in your mouth? Of course, you say, "Well why do I want to be the one out of air?". Well, when you switch to your safe second if there is a problem, you will have the better state of mind to fix it. Further more, in a low vis situation, when a diver can't really even see you, it is easier for them to find in touch contact. Everyone has a head, and everyone diving is going to have a mouth. These are in the same place as everyone else. Once they find your head, they know exactly where to get the air they need.

Now, I am not saying anyone who does not choose to go dive the same as I, is a stroke. I am not saying that they are unsafe and going to kill everyone in the water. I am simply saying I think the DIR method is a safer, and more logical, alternative.

 

[gentlegiant]

Dee,

I would suggest that you be very careful with that swivel that your primary is hanging off of and be sure to carry a spare in your divebag. The last trip my wife and I took to the Dry Tortugas we there were 4 divers on the boat using the same setup and 2 of them had o-ring failures on that swivel which caused them to lose at least 2 dives each and they had to make some hose switches (to put the primary on a shorter hose so it was not hanging out in the current and jerking the reg out of their mouthes) in order to make more dives. We had been looking at the same setup but decided against it after that trip. Now I dive with a DIR hose configuration and I am switching my wife over this weekend.

SeaJay, if you are serious on wreck diving and will be looking at doing any penetration dives I would strongly suggest looking at H-valves with dual 1st stages if you are diving a single tank. That way if you are inside a wreck and have a regualtor failure you have a chance of saving some of your gas. I would also suggest you take a good look at the DIR equipment configurations. I am not a DIR diver, although my equipment configuration is evolving in that direction, but some of their ideas do make sense.

 

[jonnythan]

SeaJay.. no one seems to have mentioned the long/short hose alternative. This is what I use.

Instead of having an "octo" on a "token longer hose," I have my secondary regulator on a 26" hose attached to a bungee around my neck. It stays just under my chin until I need it. My primary reg is on a 5' yellow hose, and that's the one the other person gets in an OOA.

I really, really like it. I'm always 100% sure where my secondary is (no chance of it coming out of the retainer, or dragging on the bottom). Giving my primary (or having it ripped out my mouth) is just fine because my secondary is just sitting 3" from my face, and it's not in some sort of retainer i need to rip it out of.

I'm not DIR in any sort of way, but I love this hose config. No OOA situations on it yet, but my buddy's surprise drills have really proven it to be superior.

 

[DuckDive]

Originally posted by SeaJay

<snip>
I had a hard time justifying the extra cost and possibility of something going wrong, but thought it a good idea to reduce hoses. Maybe that's not such a big deal anymore either...

Gotta say, it's interesting to watch your thought progression, it's very similar to how mine went.

It's easier to decide if you keep the two issues separate:
1. Integrated inflator/alternate thingy, or not?
2. How many 2nd stages, which do I donate and what are the hose lengths?

(1) depends largely on the type of diving you expect to be doing. The deeper you go, I think, the more you (and your buddy) will appreciate a full-blown backup/octo 2nd stage. Also, if you expect to be diving with a lot with newbie divers (may not apply to you) the easier-to-understand-and-operate factor gets more weight.

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4818
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1993
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=235

(2) almost needs it's own forum on the board . You could start here: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10022

Good luck.

Mark.

 

[VTWarrenG]

Where else can you find the following two statements by the same person in the same thread?

I've seen some people using a secondary that's somewhat integrated with their BC inflate/deflate buttons...

My plan is to make numerous deep dives, and eventually become very familiar with all kinds of exotic gasses

Take it one step at a time, kid. No offense, but you sound very much like the cowboy persona, which is a type of student I routinely refuse to teach.

If you're really going to go technical, do the following things:

1) Get ~200 dives on air to recreational depths before doing anything even remotely "technical." Don't do anything stupid, like using mixed gas without training, or going beyond recreational limits.
2) Buy the right gear (gear that is or can be made acceptable in technical criteria) the first time. If you're even considering an inflator-integrated backup or a wireless AI computer, you haven't done nearly enough research.
3) Lose the preoccupation with depth. Learn to become preoccupied with safety. Take many, many classes.

- Warren

 

[SeaJay]

Thanks, you guys, for sharing your experience and ideas. Sure helps to try to figure out where to go from here.

Jonnythan: Your hose routing idea seems really interesting... You know, I've only ever dived with the hoses set in a very standard array... Your idea is something I'm going to have to try. Seems like it's a great idea...

Duck: Being the newbie to all of this, it's a relief to see that I'm not the only person that is going, or went through, this thought process. At least I know I'm on the right track. Thanks for pointing me towards some info...

VTWarrenG: No offense taken. Cowboys are cool. I understand what you mean, though... In motorcycling we call the kind of guys that you are talking about "squids." We also call them "temps," since they never last very long. They either die or hurt themselves so bad that they never return to the sport. It happens in any risky arena, like skydiving, motorcycling, and I'm sure scuba as well.

I pride myself on wanting to push my limits... To go deeper, to dive more, and to find more wrecks... But I'm aware of the fact that I'm new to this sport and don't yet know my limits. I'm bound to cross them... And so I'm relying on experienced buddies, lots of classes and education, and even talking to you guys. If I were in your class, I don't think you'd refuse to teach me... I'm a terrific student and very interested in learning... For most instructors, I'm a dream student. My desire to push my limits is only there because I don't yet know what those limits are. That's where you'd come in.

My ignorance shows through here with not knowing what an integrated octo was called... And yet a post or two later I said that I'd like to do lots of dives and learn exotic gasses. Maybe it would have been more accurate for me to say, "One day I want to understand exotic gasses and dive with them regularly." It's very much something I'd like to learn as time goes on... I'm not ready to jump in just yet. Maybe I'll go get a book from the library on it so that I can learn this stuff before I take the class.

1. Yeah, I'd really like to go technical... And I promise never to use mixes until I'm trained for it.

2. It's so that I can "buy the right gear the first time" that I'm coming here and asking you for your help. Yeah, I was considering wireless AI computers vs. non-wireless ones... And yes, I was considering and integrated octo vs. a nonintegrated one. The Apeks website shows a nicely integrated octo, and you can't tell me that that reg wouldn't breathe well. Yet, it's integrated. Why would a tech diver not be interested in a wireless AI computer, or an integrated octo? I mean, I never see them use either... And I'm not downing them for that... I just want to know why. Can you tell me why?

3. I plan to take many, many classes. Advanced is next... And I'll be touching on the specialties: Night dive, deep dive, underwater navigation, and search and rescue. I have a funny feeling that I'll want to persue true specialties in all of those, plus more. I've got just 11 dives under my belt in the past month... Classes are a good excuse to dive. LOL!

And by the way, what the heck is DIR? Can you point me to a place for info?

 

[VTWarrenG]

Good to hear you're not gonna hurt yourself. Being inquisitive is good -- being foolish is not. There are definitely squids in scuba diving, too.

Let's see, the right gear:

Well, we don't use integrated octo's because they honestly DON'T breathe as well as a real second. In addition, it makes controlling buoyancy a lot harder when the inflator's in your mouth. Besides, few people seem to know that you can breathe (not rebreathe) the oral inflator anyway -- all you have to do is press the inflator button and breathe. Effectively, technical divers are carrying three regulators.

We don't use hoseless AI computers because we don't use computers. For most "technical" dives, computers are useless anyway, because they're wildly innacurate for deco, and sometimes plain dangerous. We just use good ol' tables, cut from a planner like DecoPlanner, and a bottom timer / depth guage.

DIR stands for "Doing It Right," and is a philosophy of good diving. It encompasses fitness, training, equipment, dive planning, techniques, and more. There are hundreds and hundreds of good links and threads right here on ScubaBoard. Just search for DIR. An excellent book is called "DIR: The Fundamentals of Better Diving," and is available on the GUE website, www.gue.com.

I have spoken in volumes about DIR and equipment before, but I'm a little short on time right now. Let me (or any of the many DIR divers here on ScubaBoard) know if you have any specific questions.

- Warren

 

[Goldminer]

Originally posted by SeaJay


<snip>
My question is this: I've seen some people using a secondary that's somewhat integrated with their BC inflate/deflate buttons... The apparent advantage is that you could get rid of the "octopus." In other words, one less hose to contend with.

However, I can see the disadvantage that when you need a secondary reg, you'd be forced to use the abbreviated version on your BC... Or when letting a buddy use your air, you'd be forced to give him your primary while you use your BC's reg.

However, the advantages, at least to me, of being able to get rid of one more hose seem really nice. <snip>

Rember that when you do take your primary and hand it off to your buddy (who is OOA) and you start breathing off the air II (or equivalent) your dive is over and you are headed straight to the surface (hopefully at the approved safe ascent rate). Depending on how many dump valves your BC has you may be taking the reg/inflator out of your mouth every breath to raise the inflate/deflate hose over your head and release air from your BC. Then back into your mouth for a breath. Repeat as necessary (usually often).

Added to this you are rising to surface all the time so, while the reg is out of your mouth to vent air from the BC, you are constantly exhaling and blowing small bubbles through your mouth so as not to hyper expand your lungs during the ascent. But, you've got to keep enough air back to clear the reg the next time you put it back in your mouth (every few seconds).

Meanwhile your OOA buddy may be panicking and wants to get up to surface quickly and you want to do it slowly so as to manage all this task loading that you, as a relatively inexperienced diver, are currently nearly overwhelmed with. All this can be done but does it sound like a good situation?

Air II's do have their advantages but for the above reasons I don't like them. All this to get rid of just one hose and an octo? Necklace it or get an octopus keeper to hold it to your chest. The DIR hose routing is probably an even better set up. I am not totally DIR but am thinking about going to this hose routing.

 

[MuddyFox]

Hi SeaJay, you asked "why should anyone be comfortable with the regulator out their mouth?" Here are a few I can think of:

1. Gas switching during decompression, deep, and/or technical dives. (If you are going technical or doing deep dives, this is a must)

2. Buddy Breathing. (Hopefully a rare occurance)

3. Numerous emergency situations.

4. Manual BC inflation.



As far as the octo coming loose from the scumball by accident, in my setup that's by far a remote possibility. I can guarantee that it will be there when needed. If I thought that was likely I wouldn't dive it.